Ask Us Anything: A Red/Blue post-election S.O.S.

Introduction- Host Mónica Guzmán introduces the episode’s theme: the challenge of bridging political divides after the 2024 election, marked by emotional highs and lows for Americans. She introduces the episode’s format—an Ask Me Anything—with listener-submitted questions and a diverse panel of political thinkers.

Mónica introduces and check-in with the panelists, April Lawson, Angel Eduardo, Shira Hoffer, and Travis Tripodi. 

The panel tackles Blue listeners’ concerns about feeling unsafe, unwelcome, and disillusioned by the election results. Speakers reflect on the differing realities perceived by voters on both sides.

• Travis: “I don’t want any of those things. I don’t want to take away anybody’s rights. I don’t wish harm on anybody. I also don’t believe that the administration that we just elected wants that either…I will say that I live in an entirely different reality than the reality that’s espoused by those questions. And I voted for Trump because I listened to hundreds of hours of him and the people that he surrounds himself with JD Vance, RFK Junior, Tulsi Gabbard, Vivek Ramaswamy, literally hundreds of hours of them talking directly in long-form podcasts about what they wanted this country to look like, and I didn’t get hate from it at all.”
• April: “I just want to take a second and validate, recognize, those are real sincere questions. People feel physically threatened, physically are violated in some ways, and that there’s something very deep about this.”
• Angel: “There’s a difference between rhetoric and reality. And I think we need to flag that because I get the sense that a lot of these questions are going to be about where people are living with respect to that divide, right? And the rhetoric is really, really loud. So, people can be forgiven for feeling the way they’re feeling about all this stuff.”

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Questions from conservative listeners explore how to dispel misconceptions about Trump supporters and communicate their perspectives without being dismissed as hateful.

• Monica: “I don’t know how we get past the misinformation about what’s in people’s hearts without actually coming in proximity to those hearts.”
• Angel: “We would also have to dissociate these people from the figureheads, right? A Trump voter is not the same as Trump. There could be a very wide chasm there that’s worth acknowledging. And the only way to do that is to see other people as who they are and not just because they’re tethered to this one act of voting for the guy. They’re not identical to him and vice versa.” 

The panel considers the right timing for initiating political conversations post-election, especially when emotions are still raw.

• Shira: “There’s a desire on both sides to connect and to build those bridges. And sometimes when we’re in echo chambers of our own sides, it can feel like there’s no way the, you know, those people right with whom we don’t have contact or we’re not in proximity, want to talk to us or want to understand us. But this set of questions actually demonstrates that there is that desire on both sides. And I think that’s really important to just acknowledge.”
• Shira: “I think that there are two touch points that jump to my mind. One of them is what is the goal of your engagement? And the second is how are you doing it? So, there’s a dialogue and a debate, which we’re familiar with, but there’s also a third type of conversation called a diatribe, where one person is having a dialogue and at the same time, the other person is having a debate. That is a recipe for failure. So, one question is, what is the goal? Is the goal to debate? Is it to understand, am I here to comfort you? Am I here to offer a different perspective? And one thing you can do is say, I’ve just heard you say all of these things and I validate them. What would be helpful from me? What do you want to hear from this conversation? It might feel really awkward, but it’s a great tool.” 
• Angel: “There are people in my life who I’m not sure how they voted, but if it turns out that they voted differently than me, I would think they’re wrong and I would argue about that, but there would be this baseline underneath of I’ve known you for 20 years and I love you. So, this one thing is not going to shatter all of that. I think we need to rebuild a lot of that stuff. I think a lot of people’s relationships seem contingent upon this one thing, and if that one thing goes wrong, then there’s nothing left.”
• Angel: “Agree everywhere you can, right?”
• Travis: “It’s about what we prioritize in these conversations. And if we prioritize winning, then we’re all going to lose if we prioritize maintaining that relationship and continuing to foster and build it into the future, then that’s going to be what we’re focused on, and our behavior will be driven by that. And so, whenever we want to have those conversations, I think it’d be helpful to do a little bit of reflection as to what we’re looking for out of them before we do.”

Addressing listener concerns about navigating anger in political discourse, the panel explores the balance between defusing tension and maintaining moral accountability.

• Shira: “I would not say that curiosity is a silver bullet but I would say it is pretty freaking close that, you know, and one tool that I really like is, ask questions they didn’t see coming. Instead of saying, ‘are you saying this?’ ‘I’m curious to learn..’ All of that is great. But what about like, if someone says, ‘Well, I think that Trump is a narcissist’, ‘what does narcissism mean to you?’ is a question that people aren’t going to see coming. Instead of like, ‘why do you think he’s a narcissist?’ That’s going to let them keep going on that tirade. So, what questions can you come up with that are both curious, and a little bit more interesting? Like, I challenge you to come up with a question that’s a little more interesting that will surprise people because that element of surprise and curiosity mixed together can really move a conversation from anger to curiosity.”
• Shira: “Acknowledging the weight of somebody’s feelings, even if we disagree with it, I think is a great first step in the moral seriousness aspect of these conversations.”
• Travis: “I think that concessions are absolutely important. I kind of, I tried to talk about that a little bit, like when I was saying, like, all right, this is why I voted for Trump. If he doesn’t do it, then like, I’m going to concede that those points, you know, and we should try to stop that from happening.”

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The last question from a listener: “How would reds recognize our democracy failing?”

• Shira: “I keep coming back to the distinction that we seem to be drawing here is like, does it matter what’s being said or what’s actually happening? And different people, I think, come down differently on that question. I come down in different contexts, more on what’s said versus what’s done. In this context, I come down a little bit more on what’s said. In other contexts, I think, for example, if you say something, you make a mistake, you say I’m sorry I didn’t mean it like that and you correct yourself then to me that’s no harm no foul in a lot of cases and then sometimes there is harm. So, I think it’s really really complicated the relationship between words and actions and just wanted to name that, that people view that relationship differently.”
• Travis: “I would encourage everybody that has fears or concerns right now to write them down. I’ve seen this on on social media a lot and I’m So, I’m repeating somebody else’s perspective but write them down and like go back and check them and I would encourage the other side to do the same thing with the things they’re optimistic about and then and then you know really use it as a way to to fact check your information sources you know yourself and say all right well why was I So, certain this was going to happen and then it didn’t happen and I think it would be a useful exercise for everybody to do.”
• Monica: “The biggest threat to our democracy is, if we can’t talk to each other, it’s just that simple to me. I don’t think that a lot of institutions or foundations can survive if that isn’t strong. And it’s certainly weak these days. So, I echo what’s been said here about the responsibility that those of us paying attention to some of these things, you know, maybe you have more capacity for grace, for curiosity, for listening, and boy are those things in high demand. They really are, they really truly are.”

Mónica wraps up the episode.

Featured Song: “Ride With You” by Gangstagrass

Episode Credits.

(Music up and under)

Mónica Guzmán:

Today, is bridging even possible in a moment like this? 

Travis Tripodi:

I’m So, filled with optimism and hope about the future based off of the results, and it’s the first time that I’ve ever felt that way. 

Mónica:

When the two sides are seeing things so differently and navigating such wildly different emotions?

April Lawson:

My mother said, you know, after the ERA, the Equal Rights Amendment failed, Gloria Steinem said, “I feel like I have no country.” And my mom said, “Yeah, I feel like I have no country.” 

Mónica:

In our second ever Ask Me Anything episode, we’re about to find out.

(music out) (music change and under)

Welcome to A Braver Way, a show about how you can disagree about politics without losing heart. I’m Mónica Guzmán, your guide across the divide. And I’m here to help you hear and be heard by people who confound you. Across this country, we are proudly conservative, liberal, independent, or just ourselves. And we don’t wanna be at war here. We wanna be at home. So, strap in, ’cause it’s time we learn how to turn up the heat, turn down the fear and get real about things that matter with more of our fellow Americans than we thought possible.

(music out)

Hey everyone. Welcome to life after the 2024 election. Reactions have been all over the map

Some of you wanted this result with all your heart. You woke up November 6th so relieved and ready. Some of you dreaded this result with every fiber of your being and you are angry and afraid. Some of you are somewhere in the middle, caught in your own mix of curiosity, complexity and concern. I say it in our intro every episode. A Braver Way is a show about how we can disagree about politics without losing heart. But when all our hearts are taking such wildly different rides since this election, the challenge of this whole project grows. What we’re going to explore today, with your help, is how we can meet it.

Three days after the election, we asked you to send us your deep-down honest questions about how we bridge the political divide from here. I encouraged you to let ‘er rip, bring the fire, not hold back. Four hundred of you responded, and the heat and heart was all there. (Music under) Here’s just a small sample of the questions you sent.

• “How do I hold compassion for someone who ended my husband’s employment because of our family’s political views?” 
• “I have a transgender 19-year-old grandson. The transition brought him peace. Do we need to leave the country to keep him safe?”
• “How do we discuss the truth when we’re told the truth is misinformation?”
• “How do I reconcile with my mom when I feel like she voted against the safety of her children?”
• “How do I even speak with someone who hates half the country that much?”
• “How do I go forward in peace myself when so many people I care about are hurting?” 
• “How does anybody still believe we can reason together at this point?”

Thank you. 

(music out)

Thank you so much for trusting us with your stories and your questions just as they are. We pored over them and shared a pretty profound handful, different ones than you just heard here, with four brilliant people who run the gamut on their politics. In a moment, they will join me for this special Ask Me Anything episode to try and offer something like answers.

(music under)

The first person you know very well, April Lawson, the red to my blue and designer of game-changing debates on super tough issues, joins me pretty regularly on this podcast, most recently on our election survival guide episode. 

April Lawson:

If you’re waking up to a world that wasn’t the world you wanted, right, wasn’t the world you were trying to choose. I think giving yourself grace for that period of time is good. The trick is you will make a choice about which future you’re going to be part of. And so, own that, take it, and, frankly, make the right one. 

Mónica:

Next up is Angel Eduardo. He does big work at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, and models honest, compassionate discourse about hard things wherever he goes. Like when he hopped on our last Ask Me Anything episode back in January. 

Angel Eduardo:

It’s important for us to realize that if our cause is really, truly righteous and the stakes really are as high as we’re saying, that’s all the more reason to be allergic to hyperbole. Because the stakes are so, high, you don’t wanna screw this up. 

Mónica:

Shira Hoffer is a rising star in our space. She joined us on episode 13 to talk about the hotline for Israel Palestine that she created last fall as a junior at Harvard and how questions make all the difference. 

Shira Hoffer

I think that if you protest and you break laws on purpose, but then when somebody says, “Hey, can we talk about it?” You say, “No, because if I listen to you, it’s going to implicitly, you know, condone your perspective.” I feel like it’s like two steps forward, one step back. I think dialogue isn’t sufficient on its own either, by the way, but I think that they are a package deal. 

Mónica:

Last but not least is Travis Tripodi. He’s a Braver Angels leader in New Hampshire and about as brave as they come. Last season, he came on the podcast with Dr. Francis Collins, who led a lot of the government’s response to the pandemic to try to bridge with candor even that, most unforgiving of divides. 

Travis Tripodi:

If anybody is listening to this that comes at this issue from my perspective of being skeptical of the COVID public health response, I would say that there is a lot of good that can come from one conversation and allowing yourself to see the humanity in the other person.

Mónica:

How are our panelists approaching being asked to do this thing we’re about to do at this moment we’re in? We’ll start there, and then your questions.

All right, everyone, here we are, (music out) just a couple of weeks after the election.

So, given everything that’s going on out there, everything you’re seeing in the country, and given the power of the questions that have come in, with so many different perspectives and passions. How are you, how are each of us feeling, about participating in this conversation today? April, why don’t you kick us off?

April:

Thanks, Móni. It’s great to be with you all. I think the first thing I’ll say is just that I’m coming to this podcast after a rather unusual and intense experience, which is as I was walking my dog just now. Uh, as happens in cities, sometimes I came upon someone on the street who was clearly not okay, who was lying down and had blood coming out of his mouth, and I called 911 and the paramedics came and helped, and it’s… he woke up, which was good, and I think it’s gonna be okay. But I just, like, can feel my nerves jangling and stuff as a function of that. And so, it’s funny, when I come to this question, uh, it’s kinda complicated. I feel like it was simpler after each of the last two elections, but my first reaction was like, “This is not surprising. This is.. here we are.” But then I started to talk to other people, and it was clear that, “Oh my goodness, that this was a very intense and momentous thing in several directions for a lot of different people.” And I discovered that my initial sort of placid reaction was probably a function of just desensitization to all of this coming at us all the time as bridge builders. And when I actually look, there’s a lot there. I feel very happy about some things, very sad about some things. So, with regard to this conversation though, I’m very happy to be here. And when I look at America, I feel like it’s kind of like that fellow on the street where like we just need help. And so, I am bringing that here with a hope to help, that something that we say can help. 

Mónica:

Wow, thank you, April. Angel, how are you feeling? 

Angel:

It might, this might come off the wrong way, but I feel really, really, really good about being here and talking to everybody. And I think part of it is because it gives me something constructive to do. And it allows me to focus on solutions in a way that sitting and stewing just doesn’t.

The election didn’t go the way that I would have preferred, but the funny thing about it actually is that I was kind of dreading it no matter what. I saw myself as being at the crossroads of, you know, like I’m looking at this box and is the cat gonna be dead or alive when I open it and kind of either way I’m gonna have to deal with something. So, it was just a matter of which one it was gonna be. I had a preference for which one, but at the end of the day really like, no matter how it turned out there was going to be a very in my view very strong culture war response. There was going to be an equal and opposite reaction to whatever it was that ended up happening. So, I was kind of bracing myself no matter what. And that’s where we’re at. 

Mónica:

Thank you. Travis, how about you? 

Travis:

Yeah, I am, I guess, conflicted because I spent the past week in kind of like disbelief.

Well, like on one side, it was disbelief because I genuinely wasn’t sure that voting worked anymore. And, but also disbelief because, you know, I’m, I’m so filled with optimism and hope about the future, based off of the results. And I have this feeling that I’m unfamiliar with, because I’ve lived in this country and been involved with, you know, political conversations for the past 20 years, and it’s the first time that I’ve ever felt that way. Um, and, uh, but, uh, conflicted because I recognize that a lot of, a lot of people in this country live in two separate realities entirely. Um, they consume different information sources. They have completely different moral frameworks for how they view the world. And I understand, I recognize that my optimism and hope for the future is not shared by others. And I’m a little bit hesitant or skeptical to participate just because I want that to come off not as callous and uncaring, but I want people to share in that optimism and hope with me. And I’m hoping to be able to communicate that and not come off in a way that kind of like doubles down on that that that callousness. And so, yeah, that’s how I’m feeling right now. So, I’m cautiously optimistic about this conversation, but let’s see how it goes. 

Mónica:

Thank you, Travis. Shira, how are you feeling? 

Shira:

Yeah, I’m excited. I think there’s a lot of…There’s like the tone of intentionality and the tone of like sad can sometimes sound very similar and I know that all of you are using very intentional tones and maybe just my volume is down, but it feels a little sad to me and I’m actually feeling really jazzed about this conversation. I have a lot of hope as, so, I’m a college student. And so, I don’t spend a lot of time with bridge builders I a non-profit remotely from my dorm room. And so, I spend a lot of virtual time with bridge builders but not always on the phone so, I’m just excited to be in the room with all of you. And April I’m really glad that you said what you did about feeling maybe desensitized. I think that’s a good word. I feel like most of the people around me were kind of freaking out in one way or another, whether freaking out excited or freaking out terrified. And I was just kind of I felt like I And I felt like I’ve been feeling like I’ve been speaking out of both sides of my mouth, that when people are like, “This is the worst thing ever,” I’m like, “Well, here’s why it’s not going to be so bad.” And when people are like, “Actually, it’s totally fine.” I’m like, “Yeah, but here are some really scary things.” So, I think that there is this funny, like, in-between space where I think there is a lot of hope and there is a lot of fear at the same time. And I’m not really sure how I actually feel because I spend so much time facilitating conversations and helping people see nuance, but sometimes it’s hard to know actually what I personally think. But I’m excited to explore that and the feelings and thoughts of others through this conversation.

Mónica:

Thank you, Shira. So, I guess that leaves me. Woo. I exhaled a bit each time that you all took a turn. I did. I’ve talked in the past about how this election has felt as we’ve come up to the day like a collective inhale that then holds its breath, and I thought that we were gonna be holding our breath for a while. And instead the result came quickly And so, that was a big surprise to me. And what followed was experiencing the waves of emotion out there. I guess I heard someone the other day talk about, might there be a bridge building bubble? We’ve talked about the desensitization, those of us who’ve been working on this. And so, I’ve been afraid that my relative steadiness comes off as callous. So, I’ve been nervous about this conversation. 

People sent in a lot of questions, and the extraordinary feeling that I had from that was, “Boy, that’s a lot of trust,” and also “Boy, that’s a lot of pressure,” you know? I don’t think there’s that many spaces out there that are trying to invite something truly pluralistic. I think we’re trying to build those spaces. I’m not saying we’ve succeeded here, but I think they’re rare enough that I’m nervous.

With that, hmm, and trying not to sound too sad Shira, trying not to sound too sad at all, I’m gonna bring us into our first question and this question comes in a couple of voices and let me say that there was this emotional divide that opened up from the election. One side was going to have a much rougher time than the other. And because of the election result, the side that’s having the rougher time is the blue side. We are going to begin with a blue question that gets to some of the anguish.

(music under)

The first voice is from Sarah in Maryland, and she asks, 

“What is the response of Trump voters to the agonizing feeling that so many of us have, that our own and others’ literal lives and safety are now on the line? That this is no longer about policies, but it is literally about certain Americans having rights and security taken away? Do Trump voters really want to see a world in which our neighbors who are not white, straight males are punished for who they are? Bottom line, do these Trump voters actually wish the rest of us harm, or do they just not believe it’s gonna happen? 

The second voice is Lori from Minnesota.

How can we who didn’t support Trump or anything he says feel welcome moving forward together with him to even find common ground? I don’t see or hear anything from him that would welcome the input, perspective, or opinions of anyone who thinks differently than he. I struggle because I can’t understand how kind, rational people can support his hate-filled rhetoric designed to alienate and divide. How do I do that?

Okay, Travis, you want to kick us off? 

(music out)

Travis:

Oh, thanks. That’s a lovely one to start with.

So, I think, you know, it’s, it’s obviously a lot of feeling and emotion in that question. But I think it’s a really good example of what I was talking about, about living in two different realities. Because I’ll say, I guess, as somebody who voted for Trump, that no, I don’t want any of those things. I don’t want to take away anybody’s rights. I don’t wish harm on anybody. I also don’t believe that the administration that we just elected wants that either. And I don’t want to seem like, oh, I know something that you don’t know or whatever, but I will say that I live in an entirely different reality than the reality that’s espoused by those questions. And I voted for Trump because I listened to hundreds of hours of him and the people that he surrounds himself with: JD Vance, RFK Junior, Tulsi Gabbard, Vivek Ramaswamy. Like literally hundreds of hours of them talking directly in long-form podcasts about what they wanted this country to look like, and I didn’t get hate from it at all. I got really a sense of liberalism, you know, more closer to what the old Democratic Party was than what I think it is now. And so, I got a bunch of, I heard a bunch of people that are really caring and they’re really thoughtful about how to solve the problems that are affecting everyday Americans. And so, that’s what I voted for. And I do think, and I think that a lot of people voted that way, and just one last piece is that I think that also to kind of answer that question of like, does Trump listen to anybody? I think the people that he surrounded himself with gives me so much confidence that he’s going to be listening to different perspectives. I think he’s already demonstrated that, and it gives me a lot of optimism that there’s going to be a kind of a coalition government that actually helps us solve problems.

Mónica:

Thank you, Travis. Other thoughts? 

April:

I would just jump in with one thing. I really appreciate what you just said Travis and I’m also just as you all know I come from a very blue family even though I’m a red and I think everything you said was fantastic. And also I’m thinking about how my family members will or will not be able to hear it, and I guess I just want to take a second and validate, recognize, that those are real sincere questions. People feel physically threatened, physically are violated in some ways, and that there’s something very deep about this. My mother, I was coming home from the airport, hanging out with you Móni actually, the day after the election. And my mother said, you know, after the ERA, the Equal Rights Amendment failed, Gloria Steinem said, I feel like I have no country. And my mom said, yeah, I feel like I have no country. And so, I just want to acknowledge that. And like, it is a huge, huge experience. And then by the same token, I talked to lots of people on the right who like, absolutely do not want to create that. That is not what they’re for. And they really are living in a different set of assumptions. They do not think those harms are gonna happen and they do not intend it. Now are there like terrible racist elements of the right? Yes, just like there are crazy elements of the left, but for the most part that is not the intention.

Mónica:

You just reminded me the day after the election, I went and visited a friend of mine who’s queer and was absolutely petrified, couldn’t leave her sofa and we cried you know she cried a lot and I was there with her and it was it was nothing like seeing the pain on social media right it was it was right there the deepest part of it. And on my way home I called my parents and that’s when I cried. I didn’t cry as much with my friend but in the car talking with my parents is when I cried and I brought something like this question like Shira mentioned sometimes feeling like she’s talking out of both sides of her mouth, yet I brought my parents this pain and I laid it at their feet and one of the things they said is what Travis what you were just saying. They’re like we don’t want her to be hurt. Like, “What? Why does she think that?” they were saying, “I don’t get it. Why does she think that that’s what’s gonna happen? What does she see in this side that is that terrifying?” So, I’m aware of the frustration there. 

Angel:

Yeah, well, there’s a difference between rhetoric and reality. And I think we need to flag that because I get the sense that a lot of these questions are going to be about where people are living with respect to that divide, right? And the rhetoric is really, really loud. So, people can be forgiven for feeling the way they’re feeling about all this stuff. And you know, there are people in my life who feel extremely one way or the other. I know people on either end who are just jubilant to their parading in the streets right now, thinking democracy is saved. And there are other people who think this is the end of everything. But they can be forgiven for that because there are avenues or arenas for information for informing ourselves is extreme by design. It’s un-nuanced by design.

And then the loudest people are the ones who are going to say, yeah, actually, I do want you to suffer because it benefits me in the short term. So, that’s part of the mire that we need to wade through here. 

Travis:

The animosity that people sense from the right, I want to recognize that it’s a very real thing, like the anger and those feelings. And I just think what I think might be helpful is to understand that it’s not towards the people that vote blue or Democrat. It’s towards things like the legacy media or the giant bureaucratic state that’s corrupt. It’s towards these things that are not the voters. And I think that we don’t do very good job at like drawing that distinction. And I think that a lot of the fear that has felt from the other side is because of that ambiguity as to where that anger and hatred is coming from. It is there, you know, but it’s directed up, you know, towards the powers that be. It’s not directed across to the other side of the aisle.

(music under)

Mónica:

This season, we are proud to be partnering with two fantastic media organizations to help us reach more listeners like you. KUOW is Seattle’s NPR affiliate station, founded with the idea that everyone should have free access to honest, fact-checked information. Deseret News is a multi-platform newspaper based in Salt Lake City, committed to providing thoughtful reporting and insightful commentary from the Intermountain West. Help us by helping them. Learn how at kuwo.org/brave or desert.com/subscribe.

Thank you Deseret News and KUOW for helping us create bridges between communities and A Braver Way listeners everywhere.

At its core, Braver Angels is a grassroots movement fueled by everyday Americans volunteering in their local communities. If you are ready to help advance the Braver Angels mission of bridging the partisan divide and strengthening our democratic republic, join your local alliance. No matter where they are in the country, Braver Angels alliances have a red-blue balance in their leadership and strive toward a red-blue balance in their membership. They host workshops and debates, empower new members, and design their own events and programs too. You can learn more about joining an alliance and find your local alliance leadership at braverangels.org /alliances.

So, from the blue, you know, reaction and fear, very real fear and concerns about the results of the election and since the results of the election we’re going to move to red fears and concerns. So, these are three voices and we’re going to start with Kimberly from Virginia. 

“What do our blue friends and family need to hear to lower their anxiety? I know after January 6th I asked this question of my blue and purple friends and they told me to bring up January 6th myself and agree that this event was not good. This would lower a blue’s anxiety immediately and help them, help bring them to a listening posture. What elephant do I need to address now?” 

Second voice is from Corinne in Arizona. 

“Can blues start listening to reds explaining the actual truths to them about Trump and our side as opposed to the crap they hear and believe from lying sources?”

 And the third voice is from Sandra in Maine. 

“I’m a conservative who voted for Trump but I am not basking in joy and relief. Based on what the Kamala team was saying, my adult sons think that I am a fascist, racist, etc. They say our relationship will change because Donald Trump won. I am not smiling but am bruised and hurt. How do we bridge that one?”

So, I’m gonna kick off this one. And something that I see in all three of these is a version of what do I need to say to be seen as un-monstrous? Why do I have to hide? Why am I judged and not asked? I’m reminded too, a couple weeks ago I was at a university in California and after my talk a freshman student came up to me and kind of in a hushed tone told me that she was conservative and voted conservative in the election and that she had been reading articles about how dangerous the left is, is the way she put it, and that she talked to her father and her father said, “Don’t tell them at college that you’re conservative. Tell them you’re centrist. That way, they won’t dismiss you, judge you, think you’re horrible.” So, I thought about that. 

And these questions I also thought about many of the questions that we got from reds seemed to be about navigating blue anxiety in one way or the other. And that’s just something I noticed. Now to, to try to address it, you know, Corinne said, can, can blues listen to us explain how we see Trump? And the answer that I come to is yes, it’s possible, but not while they are red alert scared about the bad that they see in that side. There is something about the monstrousness that blues see, that look, let me own it, that I sometimes see, I need to own that, that you can’t get past very easily to get to a place of openness and curiosity and to leave that space. 

And the last thing I’ll say here is, you know, there’s a side that won, and it feels like grace is in high demand and low supply, and it’s not evenly distributed. The capacity for grace is not evenly distributed. I wonder if reds can do more of that very hard work of listening when it’s really hard. 

Shira:

One thing that jumps out to me, Mónica, is the way that Corinne phrased the question, Can we start listening to reds explaining the actual truths to them about Trump and our side? So, Corrine is talking about what she calls an actual truth. And I’m really curious what that means because to me, I think that there are two things that blues could listen to and on the reverse. I think, you know, we can have the exact same scenario the other way. I wrote down like can, this question could be phrased in two different ways. Could blues start listening to reds explaining how reds perceive Trump? Or can blues start listening to how Trump actually is? And those are two very different questions I think. I think Travis explained very beautifully at the beginning of this episode. This is how I view, you know, this is my experience. I feel hope. I feel optimism. And maybe sometime offline, Travis, I’d love to hear specifically what makes you feel that way. And if we had a longer time to engage in that, I think that there’s a really beautiful conversation that can start to happen. It’s like, what is your perception versus this idea that there is an objective, this is what Trump is, this is what the Republican Party is, this is what the Democratic Party is. And I actually think that there is no one answer to either of those questions. There is no definitive, this is the Democratic Party, and this is the Republican party, there isn’t necessarily one definition, but rather there’s how each of us as individuals perceive the situation, can I think, start to lower the temperature.

Mónica:

Yes. Travis? 

Travis:

I think I just want to talk about what can we say to blues to help them with their anxiety. I think it’s, I just can share my perspective. And so, I voted for Trump because I believe that he’s the closest thing to liberal values that we’ve had, like the closest thing to a Kennedy Democrat that we’ve seen in the past, I don’t know, 60 years. And so, what that means is, you know, he protects our individual rights and defends the Constitution, right? And so, that’s my perspective. Now, what I can say to hopefully assuage some blue concerns is that I’m laser focused on making sure that that’s what we get. Now, I only have so much influence, but I’m not going to forget that that’s why I voted that way. I very much am guided by those principles and not necessarily like Trump and the personality cult. And so, if I’m wrong, then I’ll adjust my perspective and I’ll vote differently next time. And maybe somebody needs to hear that from somebody that voted for Trump enthusiastically, and is like very supportive and optimistic about the future at this current moment. 

April:

I’m wondering just.. I really resonated with the first, the first one that you read Móni, the first email we got about like what do… So, Travis I loved that and like maybe that is what blues need to hear. What is it? Because like I sincerely don’t know I have a lot of really upset blues in my life and I don’t know how to promise that the things that they fear aren’t going to happen, because I don’t think fear works that way. And so, I’m just curious from the blues on this call like, what do you, like what would soothe you? Like what would help? Because I don’t know.

Angel:

I guess I would say that, don’t be so certain that those things are not going to happen. I mean they have reasons for thinking that and they can’t all be absolutely totally crazy paranoid reasons. 

April:

No, no.

Angel:

Right? Like there’s, you know, reasons. I had a conversation with somebody recently before the election where this person was just saying, “Trump is very kind.”And  I’m like, “Can you give an example of that?” Cause I, that is not a word I would use to describe the guy. I was unsatisfied with her answers. Let’s put it that way. So, there’s, again, perceptions of people and perceptions of things and how we filter all that through our own preconceived notions and all that kind of stuff. But acknowledging the fact that these people are really seeing something and feeling something and that it’s not just for no reason, that’s where I would start. 

Mónica:

Yeah, there’s something about listening. I think about a friend of my mine, Manu Meel, and I have been talking about this, the misinformation about what’s in people’s hearts has been prevalent, mostly gone unchecked. And what I saw in Sandra’s note at the end there, where her sons think of her as fascist and racist based on what they heard from Kamala, is also sort of an agonizing question of, how is it that Kamala and what she says about me is defining me to you? And the person Trump is in your mind is now sort of bigger than me. And I don’t know how we get past the misinformation about what’s in people’s hearts without actually coming in proximity to those hearts.

Angel:

We would also have to dissociate these people from the figureheads, right? A Trump voter is not the same as Trump. There could be a very wide chasm there that’s worth acknowledging. And the only way to do that is to see other people as who they are and not just because they’re tethered to this one act of voting for the guy. They’re not identical to him and vice versa. 

Mónica:

Okay. This next one is from John in Pennsylvania. 

“My question is about your views on the timing of initiating that bridging conversation with someone who is devastated by this election result, particularly when you’re someone who voted for Trump. Do we initiate it as soon as possible? Do we wait a month or two? Is there a ‘too soon’, a ‘too late’ even?”

And now another voice on this from Jody in Virginia. 

“I have a hard time gauging when it’s more important to let people be in their feelings and when it’s appropriate to offer a different perspective that challenges their narrative about the election. I want them to feel heard on the one hand, and I also don’t want to leave them with the idea that theirs is the one correct interpretation, and everyone they know agrees with them. It’s even harder when I don’t really have a good alternative to offer, but I’m just uneasy with the sweeping generalization that they’ve expressed. I know that a lot of reasonable, good-hearted people voted for Trump, probably because they don’t perceive his attitudes as hateful. So, how do I help build a bridge there when I don’t have a good answer myself?”

Shira, what have you got on this one?

Shira:

These are, are amazing questions. And the first thing that I think is remarkable is I’m sure there were others, others like this, that the folks on both sides are wondering how we can bridge this divide. And I think if there’s one takeaway from this question for me, it’s that there’s a desire on both sides to connect and to build those bridges. And sometimes when we’re in echo chambers of our own sides, it can feel like there’s no way the, you know, those people right with whom we don’t have contact or we’re not in proximity, want to talk to us or want to understand us. But this set of questions actually demonstrates that there is that desire on both sides. And I think that’s really important to just acknowledge. 

I wish that there was like a silver bullet like, based on my experience, you should wait two and a half weeks. I don’t think that that answer exists. I think it really depends, and it depends on a lot of things. It depends on who the person is, is it your spouse? Is it your kid? Is it your coworker? Is it that random guy that stopped you on the street? I think those are important considerations. Another consideration is what is the moment? Is it, you know, one person is sitting on the couch crying and you’re like, let me offer another perspective, versus someone that opens the conversation with, you know, one thing I’m really intellectually curious about, which is probably not how anyone’s gonna start a conversation, but if that’s the vibe you’re getting, right? That’s a different consideration. 

I think that there are two touch points that jump to my mind. One of them is what is the goal of your engagement? And the second is how are you doing it? So, there’s a dialogue and a debate, which we’re familiar with, but there’s also a third type of conversation called a diatribe, where one person is having a dialogue and at the same time, the other person is having a debate. That is a recipe for failure. So, one question is, what is the goal? Is the goal to debate? Is it to understand? Am I here to comfort you? Am I here to offer a different perspective? And one thing you can do is say, I’ve just heard you say all of these things and I validate them. What would be helpful from me? Do you want, what do you want to hear from this conversation? It might feel really awkward, but it’s a great tool. 

April:

What if, okay, So, I love that answer. But I’m curious, like, if the other person is, seems to be lost in their own fear. And Angel, I just wanna say, I absolutely hear you, that like the place to start is realizing that people are probably scared for a reason. Absolutely, absolutely. I just wonder if there’s a point after which letting them continue to spin and their fear is actually not helpful? 

Angel:

Yeah.

April:

And like, it would be better to try to bring them back. And, but I don’t want to invalidate things, like, where, how do I know, let’s assume that they’re not like grounded enough to answer them, what do I want? Or do they say, I just want you to listen, right? Like, when, when do I know to pull back from that? Or to try to pull them back? 

Angel:

My instinct is to say, is to plant the seed and open the door. Let’s mix those metaphors, right? It’s to say, I really do want to hear what is going on. I really want to hear how you feel and what you think about this. Even if I don’t agree with you, even if I’m coming from a different place, I really want to hear it. And I really want you to know that I care about you and that I want to figure out some way for us to reach an understanding that transcends this. Because I think that’s the bigger thing here, right? There are people in my life who I’m not sure how they voted, but if it turns out that they voted differently than me, I would think they’re wrong, and I would argue about that, but there would be this baseline underneath of I’ve known you for 20 years and I love you. So, this one thing is not going to shatter all of that. I think we need to rebuild a lot of that stuff. I think a lot of people’s relationships seem contingent upon this one thing, and if that one thing goes wrong, then there’s nothing left.

So, what I would do to get back to your question is just to say something to that effect of, remind them that there is a baseline, remind them that there’s something beyond this and beneath it that’s stronger than that. 

Mónica:

I’ve sense myself coming back to this theme of, I just think that the only immediate response to fear is listening. Listening with the groundedness of caring, it’s the only immediate response So, April you asked but there’s a isn’t there a point beyond which it just gets so harmful and you need to say something. And I do think so, but I think the cue comes from the other person. It can’t be created by you. And so, the cue that I’m going to offer because I experienced it the day after the election with a couple of my friends, is when they ask you a question, or when they ask the universe a question. 

I remember a time years ago after it was in the 2020, after the 2020 election, reds had lost, and I went to Sherman County, Oregon. I know wonderful people there, farmers, conservatives. And I talked with one of them and we ended up having like a three and a half hour conversation and there was a point where he said we were talking about, you know, the riots and the protests in 2020 in the summer and this is madness, right? And he said, “Why, why would someone want to destroy their own downtown?” And what I heard in that question was an opening, like I had been listening and listening and asking questions to understand. And when I got to that, that’s when I said, you know, I’ve talked with a lot of folks who could, like, I think I have a response for that question if you want to hear it. And he kind of relaxed and he was like, okay. And then I brought in a different perspective that to me is certainly calming in theory, right? If that’s kind of like, “There’s mad people in cities destroying everything that matters, what’s happening?” And so, I experienced that calming kind of from the other direction. And so, that’s what I think is the cue. Listen for those confounded questions. Gently, gently come in and say, “are you open to hearing something about that, actually?” I think that’s your…

April:

Ask permission. Ask permission. 

Mónica:

Exactly

April:

Do you want this or not? 

Mónica:

Yes.

Angel:

Oh, but also-

Mónica:

I think that that works.

Angel:

But also, sorry to jump in again, but agree everywhere you can, right?

Mónica:

Say more about that.

Angel:

Any time you hear something, you go, “Oh, actually, I’m worried about that too, or yeah, I would agree that that would be terrible. That would be a terrible eventuality. I don’t want that either.” Because you’re actively opposing this perception that it’s all or nothing.

Mónica:

Before we move on, I wanted to check, Travis, did you have anything that you wanted to add here? 

Travis:

Not really, because I easily could have been somebody asking that question. It could have been one of the people you included. I would say though, that like from my perspective, it’s about what we prioritize in these conversations. And if we prioritize winning, then we’re all going to lose if we prioritize maintaining that relationship and continuing to foster and build it into the future, then that’s going to be what we’re focused on, and our behavior will be driven by that. And so, whenever we want to have those conversations, just I think it’d be helpful to do a little bit of reflection as to what we’re looking for out of them before we do.

Mónica:

Okay, So, from the how and when exactly do we do this? We’re moving back to some passions from reds and blues and this time more focus on anger.

So, our first voice is from Terry in Pennsylvania. (music under)

“This country just elected a convicted felon, pathological liar, malignant narcissist, to occupy the seat behind the seal of the United States of America. He demands loyalty, threatens revenge, And sows hatred and division. How can we even dialogue with his followers?” 

Our second voice on this comes from a different perspective. Elizabeth in Oregon writes, 

“How do we move forward when there are So, many blues insisting that we are stupid to have voted the way we did, and won? Most people I speak with are not Braver Angels, and even some who are are so angry that conversation means enduring their wrath.”

April:

Yeah, well, I think that this is the other, another big thing that’s going on, and Travis I’ll be super curious what you think about the the second piece especially about it. Because honestly in my experience blues are really angry, really angry and not just hurt not just scared. Really, really angry. And it’s frankly pretty hard to sit there and listen to a fire hose of that ad infinitem, especially if it doesn’t feel like it’s gonna end doesn’t feel like it’s really about you like that’s hard. So, I basically think that you’ve gotta, I just want to acknowledge that and Travis I’m gonna kick that to you in a second. Like how do we handle that? 

The other thing I want to offer though to the point about that the to the blues question is about like we just selected the pathological liar etc. etc is I guess I just want to say that there is room for hardness in this whole question, too. Not just empathy, but actually saying, my phrasing would be like moral seriousness. Like, all right, So, yeah, you’ve got grievances, they’ve got grievances, but like we just elected, like somebody’s got to take responsibility for this somewhere. And I guess what I would say is I would go back to who are you angry at and what is the right way to direct that anger? Because I think that…So, I’m a conservative but I also am really bothered by some of the things Trump has said like ‘grab them by the you know what’ and all that I think that the I think he says things that are that are in our culture and I hate that they are in our culture. And the, what I feel about that though is that it’s not like everybody around me who voted for Trump like wants to invoke that stuff. And yet my anger is justified. And so, what I would say is I’m trying to send it where it belongs, which is at the overall phenomenon of, oh gosh, gender-based violence, structural, whatever. I personally direct that stuff at Satan, because I think that’s where a lot of it comes from. 

And so, for blues, I respect your need for moral seriousness. Think carefully about where you’re directing that anger. And for reds I would say it is appropriate to ask people to take responsibility in both directions here. And there’s only so much anger that you need to expose yourself to at any one time. But Travis, I’m super curious what you would say about the anger piece because I bet you’ve gotten those tirades also. 

Travis:

Well, it’s actually something I don’t experience. 

April:

Really? Oh, good.

Travis:

I don’t really surround myself with people that have that different of an opinion than I do. I don’t actually share that experience, but I guess I would say that the way that I would approach any conversation like that is just to be, on my best days, I like to use the Socratic method, which is just to ask questions and be like, how do you, did you come to that? Right. I would I just briefly, though, on the topic of the convicted felon, the pathological liar, the narcissist. I will say that those are not givens. Like those are not definite, those are not facts. Those are perspectives.

And I think that just somebody coming from my perspective looks at it and says, OK, these are things that have been manipulated heavily by the media. And so, it’s not as if like we’re both coming into the conversation thinking those things are true. And now I’m arguing that it’s okay that a president is like that. I’m kind of like not agreeing with your priors, you know, and so, I just think I just want to felt like I wanted to say that about the framing of the question. But anyways, I’ll leave it there.

Shira:

I had a thought. Travis said, and now I’m not sure which thought to share. I guess briefly one is like, my organization leans into the role of curiosity for a reason. There are neurological, cognitive, social and moral factors that make it really, really hard to have conversations across differences. And I would not say that curiosity is a silver bullet but I would say it is pretty freaking close. That, you know, and one tool that I really like is ask questions they didn’t see coming. Instead of saying, I mean, it’s great to say ‘tell more about.. Are you, are you, are you saying this? I’m curious to learn..” All of that is great. But what about like, if someone says, “Well, I think that Trump is a narcissist.” “What does narcissism mean to you?” is a question that people aren’t going to see coming. Instead of like, why do you think he’s a narcissist? That’s going to let them keep going on that tirade. So, what, what questions can you come up with that are both curious, and a little bit more interesting? Like, I challenge you to come up with a question that’s a little more interesting that will surprise people because that element of surprise and curiosity mixed together can really move a conversation from anger to curiosity.

April:

I want to ask though, So, I think that’s a great tactic, Shira, and I love it. I just want to ask the other question too, particularly to you and Angel, ’cause you and Móni, all of you, but just to the non-reds on this call, but what about the moral seriousness piece? We’re talking a lot about how do we diffuse things, but what if there are things that shouldn’t be diffused? How do we deal with that sense?

Shira:

Maybe that’s just acknowledgement. Like what I got stuck on that Travis said was that, you know, it’s a manipulation of the media to say that Trump is a pathological liar or a narcissist. Another way that somebody might view that is to say, well, Trump made this statement. It wasn’t an edited piece. It was something that he actually said, and I perceived it based on my understanding of narcissism as narcissistic. So, I think there are different ways to see these things, whether it’s a manipulation of the media or somebody’s lived experience, or the way that they perceive something that’s been said. I think acknowledging, and we’ve been saying this a lot, like acknowledging the weight of somebody’s feelings, even if we disagree with it, I think is a great first step in the moral seriousness aspect of these conversations.

Mónica:

I feel like maybe this is the time right, for the for the reminder that of course people can and should walk away from a conversation where it’s burning up. Get out of there, get out of there. If it’s not feeling right, get out, come back later if you can. This is going to be a really rough road especially in the proximity of the timing of the election. The other thing I did want to say is I wonder if there’s room for concessions here, ’cause even throughout this conversation, I’ve wondered about that. Is there room, and I’m gonna take a risk and start to articulate things that maybe are wrong, okay? So, correct me if I’m wrong. Is there room for a red to concede that some of the policies as worded or as talked about at the highest rhetoric on the right could put people in danger? Is that possible to concede? Is it possible to concede, you know, on from blue side, that the blue side really has made like monstrous judgments of lots of people without even asking or checking, and that people have been diminished and and set aside and relationships broken out of this, you know, I don’t know, is there room? Can we concede some of these things? And can concessions take the diffusion out of anger and not just trying to get us out of the emotion of anger by, “Let me hear what you’re angry about.” No, no, no, no. We’ve got to get to the substance, right, right? Isn’t that what everybody wants? Anyone want to throw in on that?

Angel:

Not only can there be, I think there is and there must be. That is the number one thing I think everyone should take away from this, is your side’s not perfect, your guy’s not perfect, and to the extent that you can acknowledge the imperfections, you will be doing a service to everything and everyone, including yourself, because this is not easy. This is not all gravy. It’s not perfect. You know, like the the white knight didn’t win. That’s not how it works. And I was thinking this before the election. So, in either way, no matter how it shook out, I would be saying the same thing right now. 

Mónica:

And the white knight didn’t lose either. I don’t know. It’s like, can we look at it both ways?

Angel:

Yes, exactly.

Mónica:

But again, that sounds like we’re just coming back to the middle again. But that’s not, like Travis, I’m remembering what you said at the beginning, like, let’s not try to sound crass. What do you think? 

Travis:

I would, I would say, I think that concessions like are absolutely important. I kind of, I tried to talk about that a little bit, like when I was saying, like, all right, this is why I voted for Trump. If he doesn’t do it, then like, I’m going to concede..

April:

Yeah

Travis:

..that those were bad points, you know, and we should try to stop that from happening. But I just want to speak to something that I just think is important or from, from my perspective, and I want to bring it back to my perspective. But there are a lot of people that share that perspective on the right.

Mónica:

Please

Travis:

That nobody is, nobody is like perceiving information directly. Like it’s, it’s, it’s very difficult to separate yourself from the cloud of how you’re getting your information. And so, whenever you, nobody’s like reading bills, maybe some people are, but like, generally, you have like a congressman that tells a reporter that tells their news organization that the editor comes back and tells them to to do something different. And then, then you read like what that like the overall purpose of that bill is going to be. And so, I just I although I do think that there should be concessions and absolutely. I don’t, I don’t necessarily think there should be concessions about things that are necessarily reality, because there’s like a media like bias or or like cloud over like, like, what is real and what is not real. And so, I just, I don’t know what to do with that, but I think it’s an important thing to think about. 

Mónica:

Well, we can’t concede falsely. 

Angel:

No

Mónica:

We can’t concede just to soothe or fawn. We can’t. 

Angel:

But we have to be-

Mónica:

That’s so dishonest.

Angel:

But the thing is that there’s a trap there, because we can say, well, yeah, I will concede an actual point and I will concede if something is really true. But that just gives you a back door to rationalize your way out of any concession that’s actually significant and that’s actually real, right? Because we so badly want our narratives and our perceptions to be reality.

(music under)

Mónica:

Before we move on, I wanna tell you about one of our supporting partners. The National Coalition for Dialogue and Deliberation, or NCDD is a network dedicated to bringing people together across divides to discuss, decide, and take action on today’s toughest issues. NCDD serves as a leading, convening hub and resource center for fostering collaborative engagement across society. They support communities with the tools to work through divides and cultivate understanding in this critical post-election moment. Learn more and join at ncdd.org. Thank you NCDD for being a supporting partner and member of Braver Network. Learn more about Braver Network and the movement for civic renewal at braverangels.org/abraverway.

(music out. Music change and under)

Are you interested in politics but tired of the dysfunction? Braver Politics brings together everyday Americans and the politicians who represent us for candid conversation and good, healthy conflict on the issues that matter most. By finding common ground where it exists and practicing accurate disagreement, Braver Politics empowers our citizens and our elected leaders to practice the politics we deserve. Starting in your own backyard. Learn more and join in at braverangels.org/politics.

(music out. Music change and under)

All right, our last question from a listener comes from Laura in North Carolina, and it’s very short and she writes 

“How would reds recognize our democracy failing? What would that look like for them?” 

Angel 

Angel:

That’s the question. I think that is all, you’re already on the right track by asking that. And I think everyone should be asking that. So, there’s a there’s a thing I say all the time, versions of this, which is “Everyone thinks that we’re in Star Wars, but nobody thinks they’re the Empire”.

Right everyone thinks we’re in the matrix and everyone thinks they’re Neo, everyone thinks they’re Morpheus, right? Nobody ever thinks they’re a random guy in the background walking on the street, NPC guy. That’s the reality, right? 

So, the thing is that everyone had democracy in mind, right? If you just randomly picked 200 people, 200 reds, 200 blues, and you asked them, is saving our democracy one of the reasons why you made the decision you made? I would bet that their answer would be yes. And I think that matters, right? Now, again, people will say, yeah, but they’re wrong. Okay, fine. But that’s how they’re seeing their reality and that’s how they’re seeing what they’ve decided. That’s how they’ve, the math ended up on their scrap paper, right? After the equal sign was Harris or Trump and they did a bunch of math before that. Whether you think it was dumb math or not, doesn’t matter. The fact is, what we need to do now is look at their scrap paper and go, okay, I see how you got here. Now can you see how I got to where I got? And now we can talk. I think that that’s the fundamental basis for all of this. And it’s critical. I think that question, the way it’s asked, is already heading in the right direction. And if only everyone asked that, that way, maybe we’d be better off. And I’m hopeful that we can be. and I’m hopeful that people are asking that question. 

Mónica:

I’ll say very quickly that we considered, you know, shifting the wording of that question or kind of neutralizing it to say, you know, how would reds and blues recognize our democracy failing? What would that look like for them? It felt important to begin it from this angle because it’s the red side that’s just gotten political power over the next four years. And so, there’s more of a looking there, right? Travis sort of to use your language before, it’s like, they’re looking up and up at the top is gonna be the red team for the next four years. But the question to Angel’s point is absolutely universal. How would any of us recognize democracy failing? And what would we do about it? 

Travis:

Yeah, I really wanna answer this question. I’m not sure if I can do it in the nicest way.

So, if you’ll excuse me, being a little flippant. 

Mónica:

All good.

Travis:

I’d say what it doesn’t look like is a political candidate winning a popular majority, an electoral college victory, flipping the House and the Senate and getting a mandate to lead. That’s not what democracy failing looks like. And I think that a lot of people on the left like are perceiving the end of democracy, whereas it’s literally democracy that is like given Trump power. And so, anyways, that’s I apologize if that came off a little bit aggressive, but like that’s, I do think that that’s something to keep in mind. But I think also like, to answer that question directly, to me, what it looks like is continuing to cede power to unelected bureaucrats and officials that are there for life and that have agendas of their own that do not respond to the will of the people.

And to me, that’s why I voted for this administration, is that I’m hoping that they can do something about that. I think it’s the number one problem and threat to our democracy. And I think that it has pervaded for 60 years or maybe 100 years. And I would argue that in some ways we don’t even have one right now. And this is our chance at potentially getting it back. And just side note is we have a constitutional republic, not a democracy. And I tend to just be, like itch at that a little bit because our founders really were concerned with the tyranny of the majority. And so, some policies do direct us more towards democracy and away from that. And I would say that that’s a potential loss as well, is anything that moves us closer to a complete democracy and away from that representative government that we have.

Angel:

I think it’s important here, though, to point out the obvious counterfactual. There are probably a bunch of people listening to this right now screaming at their headphones or their phones or their speakers or whatever and saying, “Democracy failing looks like something like, granting power once again to someone who abused it the first time around would not concede defeat the first time around, did not commit to a peaceful transfer of power the first time around, and up until literally right now still hadn’t done that, and may not have done that if the election turned out differently, and that that is a foundation of our republic, that is worth preserving and worth voting against him for. Right. So it’s, that’s the point. The point is that it can be flipped in either direction. And the only way we’re going to get through this is understanding both what you said, Travis, but also what I just said, which echoes the sentiment of many, many people. And it is not unreasonable.

April:

I agree that what with the last thing you said, Angel, that like, we’ve got to understand both sides of this. And I would say though, that like just to give another, So, Travis, I loved what you said early on today about how you voted for someone who’ll protect the Constitution and our rights and you’re laser focused on whether that happens. I think that too, so for me as a red, what democracy failing looks like is… So, people say Trump is about actions or he’s about words. Angel, this is why I was gonna push you earlier on rhetoric versus versus not, because I think that there’s a valid point that like what the President says is not inconsequential, right? But when I look at the other people around him, I am not generally seeing sincere authoritarian intent and I’m paying a lot of attention to that. Like if I saw everybody around him, if I saw, I don’t know, Marco Rubio and all those folks also saying we’re going to go after our political enemies and they are the people in Congress or whatever. If I saw them saying that too, I would be much more concerned. But I think the Republican Party is still committed to the Constitutional Republic.

And yeah, so, that’s one of the things I’m watching.

Shira:

I guess if I can just jump in really quickly, I think that, and we’ve been talking about bridge building in particular in bridge building I think words do matter and that it feels a little bit like and here I’m revealing my hand a little bit, but it feels a little bit like a slippery slope to say well, the President is saying all of these things which I don’t really like but the people around him are willing to uphold the government. Well it strikes me that it worries me that the President himself, that to me that’s a step too far, is that the President himself is saying those things. 

I agree, there’s a lot of things that I respect about the Republican Party and that I respect about a lot of the people who will be members of our new administration. But I think that maybe words matter to different degrees or in different ways to different people, which I think is a really interesting phenomenon when we’re thinking about bridge building, when we’re thinking about relationships, when we’re thinking about role models. And I keep coming back to like the distinction that we seem to be drawing here is like, does it matter what’s being said or what’s actually happening? And different people, I think, come down differently on that question.

I come down in different contexts, more on what’s said versus what’s done. In this context, I come down a little bit more on what’s said. In other contexts, I think, for example, if you say something, you make a mistake, you say I’m sorry I didn’t mean it like that and you correct yourself then to me that’s no harm no foul, in a lot of cases, and then sometimes there is harm. So, I think it’s really really complicated the relationship between words and actions and just wanted to name that that people view that relationship differently. 

Mónica:

I think that’s, I was thinking along those same lines here and I’ll share something that um I’ll try to couch it in the way that it sits in my mind and left an impact but of course I can’t predict how anyone else will receive it. I have been, you know, sitting and observing the whole thing for many years now. A lot of folks, you know, listening know that I come from a politically divided family. I’ve had a lot of conversations across the Red-Blue divide, all of that. So, for years it’s been fact checkers. I’m also a journalist. Fact checkers, fact checkers showing all the times that Trump speaks mistruths, straight up lies, like, you know, the stats, It’s not even true. It’s not even correct. It’s not even true. And then I saw, I found that evidence, a lot of evidence compelling about that, you know? 

Then I saw the New York Times’ big one-page editorial message. And this is, this is the newspaper that’s been saying, “Trump is a liar. Trump is a liar. Look at the title. He’s lied. Here, here, here, here, here.” And their editorial message to not vote for Trump is, “Believe him.” Believe him when he says that he’s going to do this with the government, believe him when he says he’s gonna deport everybody, believe him when he says this. And so, it struck me, I went, believe a liar? Believe a liar?

And so, that divide Shira, that you just brought up, it’s like, how much stock do we put in words? And do we do it when it’s convenient? And then when it’s not convenient, we don’t do it. Like, what is to be believed? What is to be acted upon? Can someone’s entire character be summed up by the way they speak? Can someone’s ability to influence good or bad be read on a transcript? I don’t know. I don’t know. I have a lot of fears about that, too. But I do think that there are interesting blind spots on the red side and the blue side that are somewhat cultural. And boy, we, you know, what is the what is the way of diminishing sometimes the blue side? We’re a bunch of elites, right? We’re a bunch of elites. And boy, we love our book reports. And we love our glossaries, and we love to make new jargon for others. And then, oh, you don’t follow my jargon. You’re not qualified to talk to me, that kind of thing. We put a lot of stock on words. I’ll just leave it there. 

April:

Interesting. I feel like that, I know we need to move on and I’ll happily let us. I think that where this leaves me is that we all need to be very attentive and very, when did we engage, sounds like Pablo, engage citizens like paying a lot of attention to what actually happens, what actually is said and let’s see. 

Travis:

I would encourage everybody that has fears or concerns right now to write them down. I’ve seen this on on social media a lot and I’m so I’m repeating somebody else’s perspective. But write them down and like go back and check them and I would encourage the other side to do the same thing with the things they’re optimistic about and then and then you know really use it as a way to to fact check your information sources you know yourself. And say all right well why was I so certain this was going to happen and then it didn’t happen and I think it would be a useful exercise for everybody to do.

Mónica:

OK, well, I’m going to say at the end of this conversation, there’s something that’s kind of sticking with me a bit. And that is, April and I often on this podcast talked about the need to engage in a collective search for truth and how important that is. So, my answer to the biggest threat to our democracy is, if we can’t talk to each other, it’s just that simple to me. I don’t think that a lot of institutions or foundations can survive if that isn’t strong. And it’s certainly weak these days. So, I echo what’s been said here about the responsibility that those of us paying attention to some of these things, you know, maybe you have more capacity for grace, for curiosity, for listening, and boy are those things in high demand. They really are, they really truly are. 

And I’m also thinking about when it comes to the collective search for truth, that phone call I had with my mother that I shared with listeners about a little bit ago, where it was after the 2016 election. And I had no idea how excited she was about the result, because she was paying So, much attention to how devastated I was. And this is so, weird as a blue to say. But there’s truth in people’s joy too, not just in people’s Um, you know, I was inspired by what Travis said, Travis, you see a lot of hope. And I know April does too, as I red on this call. And this is, you know, the losing side talking about the victor, but wherever we go, we’re either going to get dragged along or we’re going together. And I’d rather not get dragged along. And that doesn’t mean I have to agree, but I don’t want to be dragged. You know, I don’t, I don’t want to do that. I don’t want to live in a country where now every four years someone’s getting dragged. Really? Like I don’t want to live in a country where there’s misinformation about what’s in people’s hearts,  and media is so polarized that a lot of people are just wondering what’s even true anymore. Like that leads to the end of a democratic, of a constitutional democratic republic as well. 

Okay, well, thank you all So, much. I just want to say again, I said in a bunch of the emails to prepare you to help us all prepare for this, like y ‘all are badass, y ‘all are brave. This is a weird moment. And I’m sure we’re all gonna be thinking about, oh gosh, did I make any sense? Did I say anything stupid? Sure happens to me everywhere. Did we connect? Did we say the horrible thing? And the fact that you all were willing to step into this with us for that, under that risk in this moment, speaks volumes. So, thank you. Thanks to everyone.

(music under)

Mónica:

And thank you, all of you who had the courage today to listen.

People talk a lot about the guts it takes to speak up, to stand up with your own voice for your beliefs and your convictions. But you know what we don’t talk anywhere near enough about? The guts it takes to hear someone else do that very same thing, when their beliefs and their convictions do not match your own. In the feel-good movies I grew up watching as a kid, when the main character finally finds their courage to say the big truth to the big, unbelieving crowd, our hero’s words are so stirring and perfect, and the crowd suddenly so still and well-behaved. They’re transformed in an instant, they can’t help but agree. They stand up one after the other, they applaud, converts all of them. How amazing.

And how completely unreal. In real life, listening when you don’t agree can mean going to battle with yourself.  Chances are good that something you heard in this episode, maybe many somethings, crash landed with you, stirred you up. Maybe you did yell at the speaker, like Angel was saying, but if listening was bumpy and you made it this far. Not just this episode, by the way, but this whole roller coaster of a season, I hope you know that the thing you just did was not just hearing a podcast. It was practice. It was building something. 

What will you do with it now? How will you respond when politics comes up over the holidays? Or when you choose to bring it up and someone reacts in their own way? How will you receive the people around you who are genuinely angry or joyful or afraid or relieved about what changed on November 5th. How about the people who aren’t around you but you cross paths with on social media or hear about on the news or when it’s you who messes up, says the wrong thing, fails to say the right thing or has no idea what to do.

Will you judge, or will you wonder?

(music continues for some ponderous moments)

With that, our last episode for now. I’m ready to send you brave souls back to your worlds with a song. But first, some congratulations are in order.

Our artist-in-residence, Gangstagrass, whose beats you hear all over the place on this podcast, saw their latest album, The Blackest Thing On The Menu debut at number one on the Billboard Bluegrass Music chart. It’s their second album to top the bluegrass chart. Go Gangstagrass! The song we are closing out with today is a throwback to that first top album from 2020. It’s called “Ride With You.” Take a listen. 

(upbeat music: “Ride With You” by Gangstagrass)

(music up and under)

Thanks everyone So, much for joining us on A Braver Way. Reach out if you’d like at abraverway@braverangels.org. 

A Braver Way is produced by Braver Angels and distributed in partnership with KUOW and Deseret News. We get financial support from the MJ Murdoch Charitable Trust and Reclaim Curiosity and count USA Facts as a proud sponsor. 

Our brilliant senior producer and editor is David Albright. Our extraordinary producer is Jessica Jones. My disagreement buddy is the one, the only, April Lawson. 

Our theme music is by the fantastic number one billboard bluegrass charting hip-hop band Gangstagrass. 

A special thanks to the amazing Ben Caron, Don Goldberg, Gabbi Timmis, Katelin Annis, and Emily Province. Y ‘all are awesome! 

And to everyone who’s shared your stories and questions with us, to everyone who’s just turned up and listened, it has been this team’s absolute eye-opening, incredible pleasure to try and help you find your own braver way. I am your host and guide across the divide. Mónica Guzmán. Take heart, everyone. Always. Till next time. 

God, I started crying. Ok, take two. Maybe the crying one is good…alright…

♪ I’m trying to make sure that don’t happen ♪ ♪ Climb on this boat with me, ride with your captain ♪ ♪ Maintain yourself fit in orderly fashion ♪ ♪ Calm and collected, but I still need your passion ♪ ♪ This is a call to action, packed with exact facts ♪ ♪ Building more bridges than you will with a hashtag ♪ ♪ Big dog bargains and the fat cats running ♪ ♪ Revolution coming now ain’t that something ♪ ♪ But you’re the bumpin’ guy ♪ ♪ Come on, come on, I wanna ♪ We’ll be fine and lost just ’til we die ♪ 

(music under)

“Braver Angels” is the nation’s largest cross-partisan, volunteer-led movement to bridge the political divide and the organization that produces this podcast. And here’s the exciting part. You can join us in our mission to overcome toxic polarization and strengthen our Democratic Republic. Head to braverangels.org/join to become a member and support our growing movement. And let them know that A Braver Way sent you.

(music up and out)

♪ Come on, come on, I wanna ride with you ♪