‘Am I the monster?’ with trans activist Kai Cheng Thom

Introduction- Host Mónica Guzmán introduces the episode’s theme: how to engage with those who deny your right to existence. Is that denial the same as hate? Is it monstrous?

Mónica introduces this episode’s guest: Kai Cheng Thom, an author, activist, and therapist who is transgender.

Kai speaks about her experience of hypocrisy and toxicity within the activist community. 

• Kai: “We have to speak truth to power as strongly and as powerfully as we can.”
• Kai:  “I noticed that the communities I was a part of, like the communities of activists could be really cruel to one another, always looking for faults, always finding criticism. We were speaking power to the outside, but we were also speaking power to the inside, and it didn’t feel great, you know, it could be toxic. And I came to realize that what we needed to build strong relationships, to pursue social change, was to be more deeply listening, more in the spirit of what Martin Luther King Jr. called Agape, like the beloved community.”

Kai and Mónica explore the concept of “monsters” as aspects of ourselves or society that we reject that are waiting to be loved. 

Kai discusses the nature of fear in society, including the fear parents have when their children are looking to transition. 

• Kai: “Hate has almost never been the reason that humans hurt humans. Fear is.”
• Kai: “Each person’s story is really deep and their prejudice or their hatred or whatever

it is they don’t like about me is actually just like a tiny part of them.”

• Kai: “It’s so easy to say, Oh, those hateful people are just villains, right? Like they’re just evil, they like to hurt or they’re bigoted. But what motivates what I on the left perceive as bigoted or prejudiced behavior, if I really look at it, like really look at the rhetoric, the stories people are telling, what I see is that people are afraid.”
• Kai: “My deep wish is that we notice, ‘what does our fear allow us to justify?’”

Thank you to media partners Deseret News and KUOW.

Supporting Partner: Rehumanize International

Kai reflects on J.K. Rowling’s controversial stance on gender issues and shares a “love letter” in response.

• Kai: “When I look at JK Rowling, I see somebody who has survived unthinkable things. Somebody whose lived experience has taught her something about injustice and that has given her a particular view on what it means to bring justice into the world. I also see somebody whose vision of justice for women and for girls has truth in it, but not all of the truth. And I think I see somebody who has become hardened and entrenched in her particular vision and resistant to the truths of others in part because the way that those others have tried to impart or enforce their truths upon her has been at the very least disrespectful and at the most violent.”

Kai and Mónica explore how feelings of danger factor into our actions, and where extreme action is appropriate or inappropriate.

• Kai: “I don’t have any problems with blocking bridges, holding protests, disrupting business. What I think we need to be really discerning about is extreme action that is a direct attack on the lives and dignity of other human beings. That to me is actually a line that I’m very worried about crossing.”

Kai and Mónica ponder an audience member’s question about whether it’s possible to believe that a gay person shouldn’t be gay and not be considered “hateful.”

• Kai: “To love somebody I think requires that we stand by, support, advocate for, champion their full inclusion in society in a way that allows their dignity and belonging to flourish. And I think that’s, that is, you know, the base, a base understanding of what human rights are is that we all actually deserve to have like a place in the world that

supports our flourishing.”

• Kai: “I do a lot of teaching about love as a practice love as a practice and not a feeling we can love people even if we’re not feeling great about them in the moment…I mean feeling disgusted or angry or revolted or afraid of somebody, that in itself I don’t think is hate. Taking actions that limit their ability to be whole, to access and experience dignity and freedom, that to me is the practice of hate and hate is a practice just as love is. 
• Kai: “How can we support or love people who are different from us? We can remain convicted in our principles and our actions that they deserve all of the rights, the same rights and freedoms, dignity, consideration as human beings as we would want for ourselves.”

Kai and Mónica end by reflecting on how to not drop into fear, hate and despair when encountering politics, social media, or the world at large. 

• Kai: “Our humanity, no matter how imperfect, is worthy of love.”
• Kai: “The only real way forward is one where we are standing up for each and every person’s full humanity and full dignity, and anything less is not love, really.”

Supporting Partner: Citizens Climate Lobby

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Mónica discusses how hard it was to make this episode, and connects with her red co-host April Lawson to discuss the interview. 

Mónica and April begin by discussing their reaction to the episode’s themes, particularly their emotional responses to the poem Kai wrote for J.K. Rowling.

April and Mónica reflect on the strengths and weaknesses of Reds and Blues on engaging with someone who thinks they shouldn’t exist or otherwise doesn’t include them in their vision of a world that is good or right.

• April: “I think Reds have ideas that bad things can hide in. And I also think that there’s a sort of, part of being a ‘little c conservative’ is that you love the familiar, right? It’s one of my favorite, Edmund Burke lines, he’s my favorite thinker, is that ‘you love your country because you love your neighbor, because you love your street, because you love your little community and your habits and the rhythms of life.’ And with a love of the familiar, comes a reflexive fear of the other, I think. It just does.”
• April: “In my experience Reds with real people in front of them are very, tend to be very compassionate, not necessarily humble, not necessarily ideologically any different, but the number of Reds I know who like are so loving towards real people in front of them. Because like, if you get people ideological, they’ll say some things that sound hurtful or whatever. But if you look at how they actually behave with people that they know, I think Reds are actually quite compassionate and that’s a strength.”
• April: “Disgust is the language of hate, right? That’s how you other something and make it not human. You activate that part of the human psyche and then you can do anything to it, them, it, right? But I also, like, you know, I’ve had some of those feelings towards some of these things and, like, does that make me irredeemable? I hope not.”
• Mónica: “There’s been a lot of people feeling like they cannot be honest and they cannot ask

questions and they cannot suppress, even the left to the left. I mean, we know this. This is a huge topic of conversation right now. And it’s done out of that terror that if we don’t police people this way, then the world that Kai asked for, that can really make space for everyone will never come.”

• Mónica: “I don’t like the idea that only the blue side honors belonging. I don’t think that’s true.” 

April and Mónica discuss their own relationships to the driving question: “How am I supposed to engage with someone who thinks I shouldn’t exist or otherwise doesn’t include me in their vision of a world that is good or right?”

• April: “I feel like sexuality and how we think about it and gender are one of the core dividers in not just red and blue politics, but in red and blue culture. I think that in America that those are like, it’s one of the central things that will fracture people.” 
• April: “My question is, ‘does honoring somebody else, does loving them, does advocating for their full inclusion in society mean we have to accept their framework and their conceptualization of who and what they are? Because that’s where I get stuck…part of the reason I think that’s a valid question is because I’ve had wrong frameworks.”

April shares her personal beliefs around gender and sexuality, and her fears for how society currently approaches both of those subjects, especially in relationship to children.

Mónica and April grapple with the possibility of loving someone without approving of them or their actions. 

• April: I feel like in an effort to stop people from oppressing other people, we’ve tried to just ban any input from anyone else into what is going on inside you. But I need other people to figure this stuff out…I can’t do that alone.”
• Mónica: “Culture that evolves for all of us requires input from all of us. And we have to find a way. We have to find a way to access the input… Let’s welcome input and let’s give input. And that requires stepping away from fear.”

Mónica summarizes the episode.

Featured Song: “Even You” by Tom Prasada-Rao 

Episode Credits. 

(music under)

Mónica Guzmán:

Today, we dive into a set of divisions that go beyond what we believe to who we are

Kai Cheng Thom:

I’ve met a lot of people who have a lot of fear about trans folk. And I have a lot of fear of those people, even that phrase, those people, I start to make up stories as soon as I say it. 

Mónica:

And then, a conversation that pushes us to explore those edges, where good intentions and an openness to others, may not be enough

April Lawson:

I did find space in it, except that I’m wrestling with the particulars because I do want to influence the culture.

Mónica:

All that and more is just ahead.

(music out)

(music under)

Welcome to A Braver Way, a show about how you can disagree about politics without losing heart. I’m Mónica Guzmán, your guide across the divide. And I’m here to help you hear and be heard by people who confound you. Across this country, we are proudly conservative, liberal, independent. Or just ourselves.

And we don’t want to be at war here. We want to be at home. So strap in, cause it’s time we learn how to turn up the heat, turn down the fear, and get real about things that matter with more of our fellow Americans than we thought possible.

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Hey everyone, welcome back. This week, we’re gonna go to some places I honestly wasn’t sure we even could. A lot of times when people I run into, they’re not Think about talking to someone on the other side. They, very understandably, go to the worst-case scenarios. The hardest places to do it. The times when it’s unimaginable; when it seems reckless, wrong, even stupid. And they’ll often land on one freely tough question that, when I hear it, just makes my heart stop. How are you supposed to engage with someone who thinks you shouldn’t exist. 

(music under)

I hear a version of this question a lot. When I do talks at schools, at churches, at civics groups, people have to gather some courage to ask it, I think. And I can feel it. The fright, and the defiance, because hey, if someone thinks I shouldn’t exist, and my very presence is a constant challenge to them we have quite a disagreement there. One that might be too big to bring up, and maybe too dangerous. 

(music out)

Which brings us to the other side of this tough question.

When the things we believe lead us to take issue with who somebody else is, Or at least, since there’s a disagreement, who somebody else thinks they are. Is that denial the same as hate? Is it irredeemable? Un-engageable? Is it monstrous? 

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I had no earthly idea who we could bring on the show to talk about these questions and this whole theme.

Then I stumbled onto the work of Kai. She is many things. An award-winning writer and performance artist, The author of a book I loved called Falling in Love with Being Human, which she referred to as my act of prayer in a collapsing world. Kai is a believer in a greater divinity, who was raised in and is no longer part of the evangelical Christian faith.

She describes herself as a community healer. She’s a former clinical social worker and a somatically trained coach, consultant, and educator. and conflict resolution practitioner. Kai is also an activist. She is also transgender, and she has wrestled with that question. How are you supposed to engage with someone who thinks you shouldn’t exist in more visceral and surprisingly universal ways than most?

Here then is my conversation with Kai.

So, I want to start here. I look around the world right now, and I see. what appears to me to be this binary on one end, I see people standing up firmly for what they believe on really tough issues. They’re not holding back. They’re putting it all out there. They’re doing what it takes to disrupt provoke so they can bring about change.

And sometimes That means they exclude people, they attack people, they demean people, because hey, demeaning things are happening to them too. And you’re not going to get change by going soft. It’s a trap. Now, on the other side of what I see as this binary, there’s this image of something closer to, I don’t know, like a peacemaker?

Someone trying to help opposing sides? See each other more fully so they can get past their own projections where they exist, their misperceptions where they exist, and maybe make some actual headway. To these people, a lot of the activism out there right now feels like it’s a lot of heat and no light.

So they spend their time calling for that light, appealing to something deeper. Now, it seems to me that with those two visions, it’s kind of never the two shall meet. But then I got to know your work, and I started to reconsider that. Kai, can you tell us about yourself and your work? Does it bridge these two binaries, and if so, how?

Kai:

Wow, I’m just very struck by the beauty of your question and that way that you phrase the binaries. I’m like, oh, you’re seeing my soul. You really read my book. That’s amazing. I’m always shocked when they read. I know, I’m just shocked when people are reading that. Wow, it’s amazing. Thank you so much.

And I, I think that binary you’re talking about the, we have to speak truth to power as strongly and as powerfully as we possibly can, even when that means hitting hard, excluding others, versus we need to be deeply listening, opening up space, building bridges, because that’s how we move things forward.

I really do believe that there is very deep wisdom at the core of each of those poles of the binary or polarization. So I hope my work does bridge that. That’s always the goal. And I think I don’t always do it, like I think there’s like the commitment I have as somebody who is an artist, a writer, a poet, performer, and also a practitioner of mediation, dialogue, facilitation, all the work that I do is really about trying to find the place between the poles, right?

And sometimes we get there and sometimes we don’t. But I deeply think that it is worth it to try. So that’s the journey that I’m on. 

Mónica:

Tell us about then your activism and how it reflects these goals that you just illustrated. Paint the picture a little more for us. 

Kai:

I started out as like a hardcore leftist, I think a lot of people would see me as part of the extreme left or the social justice left.

And this is because I was I’m a transgender woman I’m an Asian woman as well. I’m a descendant of migrants in Canada and I grew up knowing that things weren’t fair. Like I was a kid in the nineties and. I think it’s largely undeniable that in the nineties, there was a lot of homophobia and transphobia around.

It was just a lot more common, for example, to make homophobic jokes on television, in public, as a teacher of an elementary school class, that sort of thing. And so I, I had all of this, sense of suffering and injustice and anger. And that led me to be a campus activist along with many other people that I did my undergrad with.

And I think what shifted for me is I, at the same time as I was doing activism for trans rights, and then I was also, more peripherally involved in things like activism around Israel, Palestine, that sort of thing. I noticed that the communities I was a part of, like the communities of activists could be really cruel to one another.

Always looking for fault, always finding criticism. We were speaking power to the outside, but we were also speaking power to the inside. And it didn’t feel great, it could be toxic. And I came to realize that what we needed to build strong relationships to pursue social change was to be more deeply listening, more in the spirit of what Martin Luther King Jr.called agape, like the beloved community. And that was the road that actually started me You started getting me curious about, maybe it’s not only within the left, like maybe it’s also toward the right. Like when you start listening to people you disagree with a little bit, you start to listen to people that you disagree with a lot.

It’s true. It’s true. It’s a slippery slope.

Mónica:

Yes. I have noticed the same thing. 

Kai:

And,so that’s what my activism looks like now is it I still am I would say a member of the far left. I deeply believe in my ideals. But I, something I’ve learned is that if we cling to our ideals, if we are rigid about them, we, have you ever noticed, if you probably, of course you have we start to do the opposite thing of what we intend when we’re clinging.

Like when I’m like, if I say, Oh, I’m about progressivism and I believe in inclusion and everybody has a right to this and a right to that. And anyone who disagrees with me should be shut out of society. I’m doing the opposite of, what I want to be doing and that curious loop or cycle, that weird shadow in, in human psychology is something that I am trying to bring more awareness to because I really do believe in the better world and we’re not going to get there without noticing what we’re doing and listening to one another.

Mónica:

Yes. Your book, Falling Back in Love with Being Human. You’ve described it as, a book of letters to everyone and everything that I have ever had trouble holding in my heart. And you dedicated the book to monsters waiting to be loved. 

Kai:

Yes. Yes. 

Mónica:

Who are those monsters to you? Do you see any of them in and around our politics?

Kai:

Yes. I love this question. All the monsters who are waiting to be loved. Those monsters are us. 

I think about them, most specifically as queer and transgender people who are identified so often as monstrous by homophobic and transphobic society, but much more broadly because I think, that’s the experience of discrimination is one that is, specific to whatever group is being discriminated against, but the experience of feeling demonized, the experience of being labeled to the outsider, I think is actually fairly universal.

And I’m so curious about that bridge, like, how we each have a window into being made into the monster, feeling like a monster. And in a way the book is for all of us. 

Mónica:

Whoa, I want to I need to give that a beat boy, we, we are the monsters. You’re…, As I read the book, one of the things that really struck me was how letter after letter to those who you have had trouble holding in your heart, maybe because they’ve hurt you or they hold beliefs that, appear to keep you from thriving, whatever it is, letter after letter. \It’s like you found a way to search within yourself for the things that you were condemning them for. 

Kai:

Yeah

Mónica:

What?,

Kai:

I so we go back to I was unhappy with the social justice left. I was like, oh, we’re always accusing each other of being evil. And then I noticed hypocrisy. I was like, Oh, the people who are accusing others of being evil are doing the things that they are saying are so bad, on the left, it’s very common to call each other out for doing these things we call microaggressions, like making small comments that are unintentionally prejudiced or whatever.

And I was like, the people who are making big accusation and call outs are doing that all the time. Like I know them, and then again, I thought about my experience on the church evangelical church on the right wing. And I’m like, In the church, they’re always saying it’s bad to be gay, but the loudest voices that are anti-gay are often secretly gay.

And so I was noticing this phenomenon of like, when we point the finger, we’re actually seeing a mirror. And then I was like, Oh, so that means when I point the fricking finger, I’m seeing something that might be true about me. And then I became fascinated with that. And that’s what this book is about. Yeah. 

Mónica:

Wow. You wrote that being “trans is painful because I never know how much of what people see when they look at me is actually me and how much is the ghost. Of a monstrous transsexual they carry around in their heads.” How do you manage all that? The sense that total strangers might have an image of you that brings up fears. That they don’t know you, but that they’re downloading into their heads. Look, let’s be clear. We all do this. Absolutely. With different kinds of people all the time. We imagine people all the time. But how do you manage all this? 

Kai:

Yeah. How do I manage that? I think one of the great gifts in my life is that I’ve gotten to have so many conversations. Like all my jobs that I’ve had in my life are about having conversations, deep and meaningful ones. So I’ve met a lot of people. who have a lot of fear about trans folks. Often they haven’t met too many, or they’ve only met trans people in an antagonistic context, right? Two sides of a protest or something.

And they have a lot of fear. And I have a lot of fear of those people, even that phrase, those people, I start to make up stories as soon as I say it. Who those people are, what they look like, that kind of thing. And fortunately, what I, can bring myself back to is my remembrance that like the story, each person’s story is really deep and their prejudice or their hatred or whatever it is that they don’t like about me is actually just like a tiny part of them.

And I have so much experience being with people in these really deep struggles. I had all these conversations when I was a therapist with parents whose kids were transitioning. It was amazing. At least 200 parents, but maybe more like three or 400. 

Mónica:

Oh my goodness. 

Kai:

People make up stories about parents who are struggling with their kids transitioning. Oh, they’re like, oh, those parents are bigots and stuff like that. That’s not true at all. I don’t think I ever met a single parent who was like, oh, my kid’s trans, I don’t like them because they’re trans. But my goodness, I think 99. 9 percent of those parents all cried in the conversations. 

Why did they cry? Because they were afraid, first of all, that they would lose their children. to them being trans, and second, because they were afraid that they were somehow, they didn’t even know fully how, but it was like for them in any direction, because it’s so heated about how to raise trans kids right now, right?

In every direction they went, they thought they might fail and harm their child, and that was really what was driving them. And when I think about stuff like that, it opens me and softens me. I’m like, inside, we’re all just terrified. We all just really want to know how to love people well. We’re full of shame that we’re not going to do that. And that helps me. 

Mónica:

Wow. You wrote recently, “Hate has almost never been the reason that humans hurt humans. Fear is.” 

Kai:

Oh, yeah. No, it’s so easy to say, oh, those hateful people are just villains, right? They’re just evil, they like to hurt, or they’re bigoted. But what motivates what I, on the left, perceive as bigoted or prejudiced behavior, if I really look at it really look at the rhetoric, the stories people are telling, what I see is that people are afraid.

Yeah, those parents I was talking about, not all parents get a chance to talk to a therapist about their fear. Of course, they might join a group on the internet. And that group on the internet might be saying some hateful thing about trans people. But what’s underneath is always this fear. And I think what I noticed too is this is mirrored on the left from the right, right?

Like it’s we’re not exempt. And here’s the tricky thing about fear is when we’re afraid of human beings, other human beings, we do this quick little logical thing where we’re like, if we’re afraid of them, then we can protect ourselves from them. And by protecting ourselves can involve almost anything.

The restriction of human rights, imprisonment, justified violence, all that kind of thing. And we see that everywhere that we miss that little thing we do where we’re like, I’m scared of them. And therefore, whatever I want to do to protect myself is okay. And from a leftist perspective, I really see that when it comes to police violence against black and brown people in America, for example.

Police will say, I thought my life was in danger, so I shot them. Right? But on the left, we do this too, right? We say oh, we’re scared of J. K. Rowling, so maybe it’s okay to send her bomb threats. It’s not! It’s actually not okay to send people bomb threats no matter how scared we are. And this is what that line is calling attention to.

It’s like…nobody thinks of themself as a hateful person, but we all feel the fear inside of ourselves. And my deep wish is that we notice, what does our fear allow us to justify?

(music under)

Woah oh oh oh oh oh oh. Yeah.

Mónica:

This season, we are proud to be partnering with two fantastic media organizations to help us reach more listeners like you. KUOW is Seattle’s NPR affiliate station. founded with the idea that everyone should have free access to honest, fact checked information. Deseret News is a multi-platform newspaper based in Salt Lake City committed to providing thoughtful reporting and insightful commentary from the Intermountain West.

Help us by helping them. Learn how at kuow.org/brave or deseret.com/subscribe. Thank you, Deseret News and KUOW for helping us create bridges between communities and A Braver Way listeners everywhere.

(music changes) (under)

Now let me take a moment to tell you about one of our supporting partners. Rehumanize International is a non-sectarian and nonpartisan human rights organization dedicated to creating a culture of peace where every human being’s life is respected, valued, and protected. They seek an end to all aggressive violence against humans through education, discourse, and action.

You can learn more at rehumanizeintl.org. To learn more about Braver Network and how your organization can join the movement for civic renewal, go to braverangels.org/abraverway.

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If you’ve been following debates about trans issues lately, you’ve probably heard an unlikely name come up. J. K. Rowling, the author of the hugely popular Harry Potter book series. She’s become something of a lightning rod in this discussion, as someone who doesn’t hold back on sharing her views on gender.

Views that not long ago would have not seemed that controversial, but today, challenge a notion that in public policy as well as in daily life, people ought to accept gender identity as fluid and changeable. In her book, Kai wrote a letter in response to JK Rowling. And that’s where we’ll pick back up on our conversation.

Kai:

So this is yeah, my love letter to J. K. Rowling. It starts with a couple epigraphs taken from an essay that she wrote that she posted on her own website a few years ago. So her first, the first epigraph in J. K. Rowling’s words is: “If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read about a trans woman dying at the hands of a violent man, you’d find solidarity and kinship.”

I have a visceral sense of the terror in which those trans women will have spent their last seconds on earth. And then a second epigraph from a little bit later in the same essay is: “when you throw open the doors of bathrooms and changing rooms to any man who believes or feels he’s a woman, then you open the door to any and all men who wish to come inside.”

So those are her words, and then here are mine: “I wish you wouldn’t fear me. If you could come inside my head and understand what I feel when I read the words of a cis woman who’s terrified that the coming of my liberation means the ending of hers, then you’d find your mirror image, trying to break out of the frame. It does not do to dwell on nightmares and forget to live and let live, dear Joanne. I don’t want to exist in a world where I am afraid of you, where you are afraid of me, where I am afraid of what men will do when you are afraid of me, believe it or not. I know something about being a woman. I know what it’s like to live in a body defined by what men can take from it.

I lived in terror too, like you. I know what being a survivor is. I know what being a survivor does. I know about the things we become in the dark, what fear turns us into when we are desperate to live. Voldemort means flight from death. Doesn’t it, Joanne? Your wicked wizard broke his soul into seven separate pieces, drank the blood of the innocent and snake’s milk, started wars, all in the name of escaping death.

Fear makes monsters of us all. You wrote so many monsters, so many magical creatures, and yet you still don’t seem to know what a monster is, Joanne. A monster is a part of ourselves that we don’t want to find in the mirror. A part of ourselves we try to cut out and split off and put inside other people so they can carry it for us.

Our fear, our shame. These are dark arts of the oldest kind. Dear Joanne, what spells are stronger than the dark arts? What magic did it take to end hatred, stop a war, break an unforgivable curse? Not an easy riddle, but I bet between the two of us we could figure it out. You and me. Survivors both. You and me.

Students of enchantment. You and me. And the army of girls and women between us. All of us. Monsters and witches. The ones who lived.” 

Mónica:

Thank you. 

Kai:

Thank you. 

Mónica:

When many people, including many on the left, look at J. K. Rowling, they see a bigot. Someone full of hate for trans people. When you look at J. K. Rowling, what do you see?

Kai:

When I look at J. K. Rowling, I see somebody who has survived unthinkable things. Somebody whose lived experience has taught her something about Injustice, and that has given her a particular view on what it means to bring justice into the world. I also see somebody whose vision of justice for women and for girls has truth in it, but not all of the truth.

And I think I see somebody who has become hardened and entrenched in her particular vision and resistant to the truths of others, in part because the way that those others have tried to impart or enforce their truths upon her has been at the very least disrespectful, and at the most, violent.

I see, when I look at J. K. Rowling, I see somebody that I’d actually probably like to have dinner with. Should she ever be into that she’s probably not, but I don’t know. And I see someone who like, in a different set of circumstances, in a different world, would feel a lot of commonality and solidarity with people like me.

And I see somebody who, unfortunately, like me, doesn’t get to live in that alternate world. At least not yet. 

Mónica:

So there’s a question that’s been building as we’ve been talking for me. We’ve talked about fear and monsters the line in this letter about how a monster is a part of ourselves that we don’t want to find in the mirror.

I, I guess I want to shift just for a moment from fear to danger and safety. I think of a phrase I’ve been using, which is that for some of us, Political disagreement is headlines. It’s showdowns, and for some of us, people live with the consequences of our debates. So there’s that sense that, whatever the policies are for some people matter deeply to the point where they’ll see it as danger.

And you were saying, once we get into that point of fearing, we can justify anything. And of course, when we get to the point of danger, humanity. does justify anything, right? Self defense is a defense against, I killed someone because they were gonna kill me. 

Can you talk to us about that? How much of these debates feel like danger that ought to justify big big steps? 

Kai:

Oh, yeah. Great question. I feel like all of my all of my leftism is going to show itself here. So let me really declare that. 

Mónica:

And I guess I’ll just say before you answer that there, I feel like that question could probably apply to a lot of things folks on the right see as threat level for them.

So I guess a note to listeners, I find this question to like many things, Kai, you’ve been saying be more universal than it may at first appear. But I still want to drill into your experience. So let’s make some space for that. Go for it. 

Kai:

Beautiful. Okay. Yeah. Let’s see how far we get.

There, there’s I do think it’s universal actually, now that I’m thinking about it. I’ll start with what’s closest to home for me which is probably unsurprisingly, the ongoing. attempt of certain advocate groups and lobbyists to restrict transgender rights around the world.

So if I think about what would happen to me if the gender critical lobby got its way entirely, then I do get scared. So on a day to day level, I wouldn’t be able to participate in public society. In the same way that I do now, but there’s also like a, there would be a restriction on my ability to access medical care that I want for myself, which would vastly increase the amount of psychological distress that I would experience on the day to day level.

And then, I don’t want to be an alarmist about this, but I like, because I think there’s a lot of debate over it, but a lot of young people I worked with did it. experience a lot of suicidality, right? Like I, I worked with them around suicide, and so I can’t help but think that some of them might not be alive.

And again, I don’t want to overblow that because I think that idea has been sensationalized, but it is, a reality that I witnessed and worked with day to day. And does that justify extreme action? Here’s the thing. I do consider myself an extremist. I like the extremes. I think that extreme action is needed in extreme circumstances.

I think the question is less does that justify extreme reactions and what a more the question for me is what are the extreme actions that we are justifying? You know what I mean? I’m an extremist, and I don’t think that blocking a bridge, for example, actually, I don’t have any problems with blocking bridges, holding protests, disrupting business.

What I think we need to be really discerning about is extreme action that is a direct attack on the lives and dignity of other human beings. That, to me, is actually a line that I’m very worried about crossing. Does that make sense? 

Mónica:

Yes. Yeah. And I think that this is part of the heart of what a lot of people are struggling with.

It’s just, it’s one of those knots at the middle of all of this that we can’t avoid trying to look at, trying to untangle as hot as it is, as tender anger inducing as it is. Absolutely. Thank you. Thank you for exploring that. Yeah. I like that we’ve been able to, we’ve been able to go right into what you really believe, I think some people see, bridge building spaces as places where you can’t say what you really believe, but it goes back to the first observation I made about your work, which is, it feels like it ought to be possible to stand for what you really believe and deeply listen. Question, fear, all these other things.

So I have a very challenging question. There’s a question that a 16-year-old girl emailed me. And she, there’s a whole story here, but I thought that she really summed up something that you even started to say in this conversation, which is that a really core question to our divides is, how do you love people well, while holding strong to your convictions?

And I wanna flip that question a little bit. How can others love you well while holding strong to their convictions if they are opposed to the policies that you champion and have to do with some of the things you just listed is feeling important to how you thrive in the world. So that, that’s the, that’s the question I want to put there in the space between us for a minute.

But I want to get to that through a related story. Apologies for the tears here, but I hope you can follow. 

Kau:

Oh, no, I love it. Let’s do it.

Mónica:

Okay. Okay. I received this question from a man who I know is very close to God who is always looking for love and good. And I know faith is important to you too in your book you write about that.

He asked me a question in a private message that I did not know in that moment how to answer. And I want to read it to you and see what thoughts you have. So he wrote, “Hi Mónica , in your article How to Stay Open and Curious in Hard Conversations you concluded by writing, quote, To be clear, I’m not saying that we let go of our convictions in conversations, not at all, only that we let them breathe.

End quote. He continues, I am a Catholic with traditional Catholic convictions about sexuality. How do I hold to my convictions about sexuality with, say, a gay person? Especially how do I communicate that just because I don’t accept their sexual behavior as being how God designed sexuality to be, that this does not mean I hate them?”

I’ve not known, I’ve not known where to bring that question and I thought maybe I could Just bring it to you and leave it there. 

Kai:

Yeah. I think first, the first thing that I notice is in this conversation, in this space, in this dialogue between you and I, we have all this kind of beautiful kind of openness, right?

And I know that in other rooms, in other spaces, other conversations, it would be so tense. It would be so tight. And I’m just like, oh, how nice to get to create. like this kind of space where we can be curious because that’s the second thing that comes up for me is the truth is I’m not sure I know.

And I’m just like, I think the first thing is to let that happen, right? I think my invitation is to let us be curious and be stuck for a little bit, 

Mónica:

Hmmm

Kai:

If I think about this gentleman, I think I would, I think I would want to have a deeper conversation about two words.

And those words are, what does he mean by love? And what does he mean by hate? I’m not sure if he said love, but if we’re asking about how do we love people well, what is meant by love and what is by hate? To love somebody, I think, requires that we stand by, support, advocate for, champion their full inclusion in society in a way that allows their dignity and belonging to flourish.

And I think that’s that is, the base, a base understanding of what human rights are is that we all actually deserve to have like a place in the world that supports our flourishing. And I think that is, maybe that’s not all that love is, but I think it is a big part of what love is. And so I think I want to flip back to this person does he believe he can do that?

Mónica:

That he can do what? 

Kai:

That he can support the right of queer or gay people to be in the world and fully participate in a way that encourages their full flourishing, like what they need to be deeply in harmony with society, fully happy. Can he do that? While he also holds his belief, that their sexuality is not designed as for, because, I actually have been loved by a lot of people who I guess I would consider maybe homophobic or who, I guess are not into queer sexuality or whatever.

And I don’t need their beliefs to change. But I do need their behavior to reflect an equal place for me in society, if we’re going to use religious language, at the table of God where we all belong. And if they can do that without compromising their belief, then I think it is possible to love people who have very different beliefs from us.

And hate, I don’t know if it’s about hate. I’m curious of what hate means. Because, I do a lot of teaching about love as a practice. Love is a practice and not a feeling. We can love people even if we’re not feeling great about them in the moment, I have a spouse, I don’t always feel great about my spouse when they never wash the dishes.

But I still love them, right? Hate? Feeling disgusted or angry or revolted or afraid of somebody, that in itself, I don’t think is hate. Taking actions that limit their ability to be whole to access and experience dignity and freedom, that to me is the practice of hate, and hate is a practice just as love is.

How can we support or love people who are different from us? We can remain convicted in our principles and our actions. That they deserve all of the rights, the same rights and freedoms, dignity consideration as human beings, as we would want for ourselves. I wonder if I answered that question. I 

Mónica:

I think, yeah, I think you did. You offered something pretty, pretty profound. Thank you.

Kai:

Okay, that’s great, because I was just like wandering through a maze of thoughts there. 

Mónica:

Yeah. But that’s what we do, right? As long as we can wander openly, honestly, and with some connection I don’t know, I have faith that… Good things come up useful things, so thank you.

You, wrote and I think we’ll close with this. You wrote that politics, along with other things, is all a maze of mirrors and fog that will devour you if you let it. What did you mean by that, and how do you not let it devour you? 

Kai:

Oh. I’m like, I wrote that? Shoot. Now I have to be responsible for it.

Yes yes I’ve been heartbroken by politics many times. But when I say that thing about politics being mirrors and fog, what I mean is politics can be a vehicle forward for the practice of humans loving other human beings doing that thing where we support each other to have love and dignity and respect and all those things I said.

But politics themselves are not the purpose. And when we get lost in politics as purpose then we just end up destroying ourselves and one another. I really believe that. That’s everything in my life has shown me that. How do I prevent myself from being devoured. I don’t know. I think it’s like an everyday thing, right?

Like every day, this too is a practice of because, every day, I sometimes, I think I, every day go on Twitter and see something new, that’s that I don’t agree with. that scares me. Sometimes it’s dear Ms. Rowling who has posted something that scares me or that I feel is hateful.

And I’m tempted to drop into a fear, a more fearful place. But I think the way to stay out of it is to really stay connected to one’s own humanity. And by that I really mean that we are all so bad, actually. We all are so easily tempted, all so easily turned against one another.

We all do feel afraid and then say, Oh, because I’m afraid that other person maybe could just be imprisoned or killed. That happens inside of us. Also to acknowledge that our humanity, no matter how imperfect, is worthy of love, like we start with ourselves, right? Then I think it becomes easier to imagine that all other people are also deserving of love.

And I think this keeps us out of that loop of mirrors and fog. It keeps us reminded that the only real way forward is one where we are standing up for each and every person’s full humanity and full dignity and anything less is not love, really. So that’s where I’ll leave it.

(music up)

(music change and under)

Mónica:

Before I move on, I’d like to tell you about another one of our supporting partners. Citizens Climate Lobby is a nonpartisan grassroots climate organization that aims to turn the tide on climate change, and help and ensure that our planet’s future outshines its past. Volunteers from across the political spectrum work locally to build support for climate action, and with their members of Congress, too, to get meaningful climate solutions passed.

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(music out)

I have this quibble with the English language. In English, we have the word coexist. In Spanish, my first language, my favorite word in that whole dictionary, goes farther than that. It’s the word convivir. Vivir means to live. So convivir means co live, something more than mere existence. Something closer to everyone lives their lives together.

It’s a really beautiful vision. So I’ve wondered, with all the stubborn disagreements out there, about what a good life together with different people looks like. Some of them bone deep, and all of them evolving as the world keeps changing. Is a vision like that even possible? 

(music under)

What if we disagree, even when we don’t think we do, about what standing up for every person’s humanity even means?

And I, yeah, I can’t believe I’m even talking about this. I don’t know how to put into words, actually, how tough this episode was to put together, and even like right now, to speak into existence. I can’t tell you how many takes I’ve done of these words. It feels like we’re getting to the core of something, and to its edge.

If you’re still here for this, because I know we are pushing boundaries every which way, this is where I lead you to my conversation with my colleague and dear friend, April Lawson. April is conservative, I’m liberal, and when we got together to record, it was very clear, very quickly, that something big had stirred up in her.

Mónica:

Hey, April. 

April:

Hey.

Mónica:

Ah, okay we were just talking before I turned on the microphone here, that this one’s bringing up a lot. 

April:

It’s beautiful and also Oh my goodness. 

Mónica:

Yeah,

April:

it is certainly bringing things up. I think this is core to all of it, in a way our entire political divide, our entire culture, anyway.

Mónica:

Yeah.

April:

It’s right at the center. 

Mónica:

It does seem to be so we have questions that we walk through, and we will lean on those questions to see where we go. And the first one is: What was a favorite takeaway for bridging the divide from the interview for you? So do you want to kick us off? 

April:

Sure. Yeah, I have to say, so my favorite moment was the poem or the like letter to JK Rowling that literally brought me to tears.

I had to like, pause it and be like, I just need to take that in. And I don’t even know why that hit me so hard, but like every line really did. And I think that it actually embodies what I think is the core takeaway that I want to dive into and think is the thing which is love is an action. It’s what does it mean to do love as an action and her comments about what does it mean to enable somebody to be included fully in society.

That’s what I’m chewing on and I think that there’s something really deep there. How about you?

Mónica:

The line, a monster is a part of ourselves we don’t want to find in the mirror. Oh! The whole concept of monster. Who is a monster. And I guess the big takeaway for me is that a monster is not a person.

A monster is something monstrous that we project onto a person. Or that we see in ourselves. But I’m thinking more, I’m moving away from thinking of monsters and thinking instead of monstrous acts, it’s tying right back to what you said, that love is a practice. And she said, so is hate that spoke to me really loudly.

April:

Me too. 

Mónica:

Let’s go to our second question then. As a red or a blue, and you’re red and I’m blue politically, what do we think our respective sides are good at or not so good at when it comes to the strategies brought up in this episode? And just to remind folks, the driving question, is a tender one.

How am I supposed to engage with someone who thinks I shouldn’t exist or otherwise thinks that, a good world wouldn’t have me in it? 

April:

I have something here that links to what you just said about monsters that just now reminded me of when I was first involved with Braver Angels, right when it was being founded.

And we after the 2016 election and in that time, and we spent a lot of time talking about why it was easier to recruit Blues than Reds to workshops and what they were each seeking from it. And the answer was typically that Blues were seeking to understand or to, in some cases to educate the other side and that Reds were seeking to be “demonsterized” and that was harder.

It’s a harder ask, but it’s also, if you get people, gosh, they really care. Like the feeling of. I need you to see that I’m not this monster you think I am was really important. So that’s one piece I think of the red, blue dynamic here. I also, in terms of what Reds are good and bad at on this, I think that.

We’re bad at some things and we’re good at some things. I would say that the stereotype is that the Reds are the ones who are the bigots and the homophobes and the racists and the sexists and all that stuff. And the sense in which I can own some piece of that is that our side does make arguments that people who sincerely are coming from those motivations can hide in.

Mónica:

Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. Whoa. 

April:

Yeah. So if I say. But men and women are different in some ways, which is a thing I believe. Somebody who wants to say. In fact, I’ve. I remember in college, a conservative friend of mine gave me a book about men’s and women’s brains and how like women’s brains just aren’t wired to do the things that men’s brains are.

And there is a sense in which that is true, but it got extended into women just really should not be in charge of things. And Our arguments, people can hide in them. And what I think the left might say is that’s not an accident that says that there’s something wrong about the arguments that I don’t follow it there.

I don’t think that’s necessarily true, but we can talk about that. And a preview of what we’re going to talk about on our next question is I had a very strong reaction to this episode. That’s about The idea of am I a monster? For having some of the beliefs that I do, but anyway, the so I think Reds have ideas that that bad things can hide in.

And I also think that there’s a sort of part of being a little “C” conservative is that. You love the familiar, right? It’s one of my favorite Edmund Burke lines. He’s my favorite thinker is that you love your country because you love your neighbor, because you love your street, because you love your your little community and your habits and the rhythms of life.

And with a love of the familiar comes a reflexive fear of the other. I think it just does. And I’m not, I don’t, it’s not that I want to like embrace and affirm that, but I just think it’s two sides of the same essential way. However, what I would say too, is that the, with that same love of your neighbor and of your particular place in your people comes a sort of human scale approach to the world that means that in my experience, Reds with real people in front of them are very, tend to be very compassionate, not necessarily humble, not necessarily ideologically any different, but the number of Reds I know who like, are so loving towards real people in front of them. ‘Cause if you get people ideological, they’ll say some things that sound hurtful or whatever, but if you look at how they actually behave with people that they know, 

Mónica:

yeah,

April:

I think Reds are. actually, quite compassionate and that’s a strength. 

Mónica:

Yeah.

April:

So yeah, I’ll leave it there. 

Mónica:

Wow. I’m pretty sure that one of our recent episodes, April, I said something about that Blues were bad at, and you said, thank you for naming that.

And so I want to say that back to you. I’ve never heard anyone articulate what you just did about those two things. One being that people with genuinely ideas can hide behind, that there’s ideas that people can hide in is a really that clicks for me. I see that. And the reflexive fear of the other.

I was gonna say, the mirror of that I I spend time on this podcast critiquing my side and praising it and in this one I really did want to begin with the praise because what I see is that in recent history at least there has been a pattern that something about the left appears to be the first refuge Of people who don’t feel like they are being embraced by the dominant culture, the mainstream culture, the people who seem to be able to kind of define what it means to belong.

And that, I can’t deny that. It’s repeated with women, with immigrants. I’m an immigrant. with people of different races, with gay people, and now with trans people. I’ve seen it. And you probably heard when I said, I’ve seen it, like a little bit of, and what is going on with the red side on this?

What is going on? Why? And the thing is, you just so beautifully said some of what’s going on in a way that makes sense to me. The love of the familiar, resulting in a reflexive resistance to the unfamiliar. It’s in us all. I think that one of the things that my side, the blue side, is quite bad at is hate creep. I’m going to call it hate creep. 

April:

Ooh.

Mónica:

Kai talked about this and I was surprised to hear her say it. She said at one point that fear and revulsion and even disgust, she does not see as hate. And I was like whoa. And it I thought about it. There’s words like, phobic, homophobic, transphobic.

And there is to me a clear line between fear and revulsion and hate. There is a direct line. Is it possible though that they’re not the same thing? I can see that. Interesting. I can see that. And I do think that the blue side, that I do this, I think a lot of people I know and love do this on the blue side, that when we detect revulsion, disgust, revulsion, that’s a strong thing, u’know?

April:

eah.

Monica:

That kind of, ugh. Then we see hate. We see the seeds of hate. We see something that needs to be stamped out. And I guess I’m, I just said this was a bad thing and now I’m talking about it like a good thing but Kai’s, what Kai said there is a real challenge. And I think one that, that the blue side needs to look at really carefully.

And it goes back to what you were saying about, the different points of view and the different arguments, and if all resistance and all fear is hate then. It can’t be. It’s obviously not. It’s not. And so when the blue side labels it all hate, we’re putting even more distance between people who love the familiar and a chance to make others familiar.

Or and actually I’ll say one more thing. I remember Wilk Wilkinson, who we recently interviewed, he’d written very beautifully about this idea that It’s okay not to like people. It’s okay not to want to be friends with everyone. We all have a right to just say, eh, not for me. That’s not for me.

April:

Can I ask a follow up question? 

Mónica:

Please. Yeah. 

April:

Yeah. Because I have strong, like reactions around all this. And so there’s a part of me that wants to argue. But you’re leading yourself to the place I wanted to ask you about, which is just, Isn’t that fear or that revulsion one of the monsters that we want to not see in the mirror?

Isn’t that yeah, the problem is that if you, if we say anybody who finds right, to take a sort of typical one, homosexuality not for them or doesn’t like it, it hits some reaction in them. Does that make you inherently worthy of all the connotations that come with the word bigot?

I’ll make this personal. Like it scares me when people say if you have, ah, hello emotion. If you have any of those fears, if you have any of those revulsions or disgusts or whatever. And I know that that revulsion is very dangerous because there is, I read long ago that disgust is the language of hate, right?

That’s how you other something and make it not human. You activate that part of the human psyche and then you can do anything to it, them, it, right? And. But I also like, I’ve had some of those feelings towards some of these things and does that make me irredeemable? I hope not. Yeah, anyway.

Mónica:

No, that’s it. That’s it. Does that make me irredeemable? Because then what we put each other in the position of denying You know, you have to deny your revulsion. You have to suppress how you really feel. We, it’s really hard to, you can’t control, you can’t control your feelings. You control what you do.

It’s really hard to control your feelings. 

April:

And suppressing them tends to make them grow. 

Mónica:

Yes. Which gets to, I think, a giant problem for the left recently. There’s been a lot of, people feeling like they cannot be honest and they cannot ask questions and they cannot suppress even the left to the left we know this is a huge topic of conversation right now And it’s done out of out of that terror, that if we don’t police people this way, then the world that Kai asked for, that can really make space for everyone, will never come.

April:

Oh. Wow. 

Mónica:

And so that’s a terror too. 

April:

Totally. I want that world. 

Mónica:

Yeah, right? We can agree on that, right? 

April:

For sure. Yes. 

Mónica:

So we, okay. We do. 

April:

Yeah.

Mónica:

I don’t like the idea that only the blue side honors belonging. I don’t think that’s true. And I think that it’s often claimed, maybe because the word is thrown around a little more reverently on the left, but I don’t think it’s true.

And you and I on this podcast have talked many times about the different aspects of that exist on the right and really powerfully and even more, I think, deeply than on the left in some cases, like for sure. I don’t know. This does feel like the crux of it. 

April:

It totally does. It totally does.

It’s the beloved community. How do you get there? And like it’s, it’s not an accident that’s a vision in religious and secular spaces. That’s. That is what we both want. Can we move on to the next question? Because I feel like we’re jumping into it anyway. 

Mónica:

Yeah, I think we are.

We’re just creeping towards it. Yes. Alright whew. Leading back into the structure, taking a breath. Where does the driving question show up in your life, and how do the ideas in this episode inform it? The driving question, I keep feeling like I need to say this is a tender one. How am I supposed to engage with someone who thinks I shouldn’t exist or otherwise doesn’t include me in their vision of a world that is good or right?

April:

Yeah. And I’m going to ask for Even though I’ve gone first on the other two, for the privilege of going first here too, just because if that’s okay with you. 

Mónica:

I’m going to pour another cup of tea. Our listeners don’t get this, but I actually brewed, I brewed and is it as nice as pretty red teapot. You can’t see, but I brewed brewed white tea and I’m going to pour another cup just to help me listen. And yeah, go ahead.

April:

It’s funny that teapot helps me too. Yeah, my first reaction to all of this was fear, because I don’t want to be a bigoted person. I don’t want to be a monster. I don’t want to be any of those things. I don’t want other people to think that I am those things, but I also don’t want to be forced to say that the spiritual perceptions I have and realities that I believe in believe exist are  capital “W” wrong. And so I’m going to back up for a second and say that this is, this episode hit so hard, partly because I, so I feel like sexuality and how we think about it and gender are one of the core dividers in not just red and blue politics, but in red and blue culture, I think that in America, those are like, it’s one of the central things that will fracture people. And I feel like I’ve lived in both worlds, both the like conservative, sexually conservative marriage-oriented world, but I got divorced recently.

And I have been afraid, frankly, to seek shelter with those folks because divorce is condemned. And so I then have spent time in the other world, which feels safer right now, which is very free flowing, do whatever you want, we accept everything. 

And this is one of the things where I feel most like a chameleon. Like I talk out of both sides of my mouth and I don’t like that. But. I’m in a lot of rooms with Blues where I think if I said what I really think, they would really condemn it. And I would be different than from there on out. And by the same token, I think that if I were in the room with Reds, some of the things I’ve done, they would say you are X, Y, and Z, or at least they would condemn the action, which would feel like condemning me, which would feel like I don’t, I’m no longer honored in your world. I feel like I’m afraid even to be honest with either side about the parts of me that suit each side’s ideas. 

Mónica:

Oh, wow. 

April:

Yeah. So there’s that. And then. 

Mónica:

So each side sees a monster in a different place in the same person. 

April:

Exactly. Exactly. And I swear to you, Móni, I think most of us, for most of us, that would be true. I think that like for most people. With this issue, sexuality and gender, like that would be true that there are parts of you that are condemned. It feels you’re in trouble either way. So the way that this question shows up in my life of how do you engage with people who, think you shouldn’t exist is mostly that I feel like I it the questions I’m one of the people who maybe thinks other people shouldn’t exist, right?

I’m not that I think I’m not that But that’s my role in this question. And I…

Mónica:

Interesting because you are Red 

April:

Yes, and because I have somewhat conservative ideas about gender and sexuality. And so I resonate with that questioner who asked and I feel I desperately want to love people.

That’s like what my faith calls me to do. It’s what, everything good in my life has come from but what does that mean in practice? And so the first thing I want to own is just like that fear is there. And I also want to say that I think the first thing that you have to do as a person who is engaging this from my perspective is try to disarm your fear.

And so your teapot actually helped me. Like my body literally was like, Oh, this is Móni. This is my friend. This is, there’s a teapot. So, my question is does honoring somebody else. Does loving them does advocating for their full inclusion in society. We have to accept their framework and their conceptualization of who and what they are, because that’s where I get stuck is and I want to say part of the reason I think that’s a valid question is because I’ve had wrong frameworks.

I have lived like multiple ways of life in the last 10 years. And sometimes my understanding of my own actions and what they meant or my own choices and whether they were… valid, sure, understandable, sure, but the right ones? If I’ve had wrong frameworks, anyone can and I happen to think that with sexuality in particular, it’s really powerful, and it’s, I also think that, and okay, just bear with me, I’m going to share some of my thoughts here I think you are, and you can hear the tension in my voice, but, yeah.

Mónica:

But I hope, listeners can’t see me, but I’m trying to show in my face, April, that I’m here for this. You know how much I love you. 

April:

Thank you. I do, and it still matters to me to hear you say it. Sorry. Yeah, it does. So the first thing is that I think sexuality and gender are way more complicated than we think.

And I think they’re much more flexible than we think, and people agree with that part. Here are some ideas that might offend people. I think that this is heavily culturally conditioned, right? So like in ancient Greece, people thought about this really differently. And I suspect that means they experienced it differently too, around what is like verboten, what harms people, what doesn’t.

So I think this stuff is flexible. I think that the Kinsey research notoriously shows that lots of people are a little bit more bisexual than they think and all of that. So a key part of what I believe is that sex and the body and connections of those varieties and expressions of your gender identity are spiritual things. They’re sacred things. And that’s part of what gets threatened when I hear you should just be accepting is okay, but there are spiritual realities here. And 

Mónica:

I don’t mean you when you hear you should be accepting of what in particular. 

April:

Hookup culture. The idea that any young person who says they are of a different gender ought to be supported in that rather than asked questions. The idea that casual sex is the same as faithful sex, that gay sex is the same as straight sex, like all of those things. And I’m not, see, here I go being afraid. I don’t want you to make assumptions about which things I approve of and which things I don’t. The thing I’m trying to say is that this stuff involves our souls.

And I just think there’s there is so much just energy in those things that if we just tell people you get to choose whatever you choose is fine. You can do whatever you want. Don’t listen to the restrictions. The restrictions are prudish, they’re backwards, they’re whatever. Any gender is possible. Any sexuality is possible. Anything. 

I feel like what we do is we. We set people up to get hurt. And I think that’s particularly true with young people. And so again, here’s a view that some people won’t like, but I’m really nervous about the way that schools are interacting with gender identity, because I think that there’s this civil rights notion. It’s as usual, adults have decided that their politics are more important than what actual care for children looks like. I think that when a young person is I think I might be this other gender. The right thing to do is ask them lots of questions and people make permanent choices that affect their bodies forever. And I just that makes me really nervous. The, so the last thing I’ll say, people will say can’t you just leave it to the person? Can’t you just leave it up to them? And I think unfortunately the answer is no, because power exists in society because there is going to be a set of ideas that tell my future children how to engage with their own bodies, with their sexuality, with their identity. And. That culture might tell them, what you do with your body doesn’t matter, it won’t hurt you. And that’s wrong, and that can hurt them so much. 

Mónica:

Okay, let’s take a pause here for a second. I know a lot of what we’re talking about in this episode is hard, for all kinds of reasons. But what I hope you’re hearing in both of these voices Kai’s earlier and now April’s is two people with different views and attitudes on sexuality and gender wrestling with how to exist in the world together. Respecting each other while also respecting themselves.

I ended my conversation with Kai by asking her a question that someone asked me once That I was stuck on. And I want to replay part of her answer here. 

Kai:

Does he believe he can do that? 

Mónica:

That he can do what? 

Kai:

That he can support the right of queer or gay people to be in the world and fully participate in a way that encourages their full flourishing, like what they need to be deeply in harmony with society, fully happy. Can he do that? While he also holds his belief, that their sexuality is not designed as for, because, I actually have been loved by a lot of people who I guess I would consider maybe homophobic or who I guess are not into queer sexuality or whatever. And I don’t need their beliefs to change. But I do need their behavior to reflect an equal place for me in society…

Mónica:

So that idea from Kai has been bouncing around in my head ever since we talked and I wanted to bring it to April too. So my question back to you April is, did you find space in what Kai said where she made a distinction between someone’s beliefs and their behaviors? Is it possible that, hey look, we have our minds, we have our beliefs, but that may not be, the belief may not be the problem sometimes

April:

Yes, totally. I did find space in it. I will admit that. I heard skepticism in her voice and probably very warranted. Like my goodness, I’m sure her life has led to that skepticism, but I also did find space in it, except that I’m wrestling with the particulars because I do want to influence the culture and I do want to say there are to use a sort of Left-friendly word healthier and less healthy ways to go about this. And I’m afraid that she will experience that as me trying to make a world where she doesn’t belong. 

Mónica:

And do you think that you are not when you, I just want to just clarify that. You believe that that trying to influence the culture would not make a world where she does not belong. Is that correct? Or too simple? 

April:

It’s a very hard question because I know. I just said, I know that psychological safety is matters. So I, the thing I want to not do is pretend that there’s an easy answer here. I want a world where people are loved and where we really follow the dictum: “Be kind, because you don’t know what war the other person is wagering.” I want it to be possible. And I don’t know if it is and you’re pressing me on it. And I think that’s the right thing to do. I want it to be possible to say for most people, this sort of thing will work and this sort of thing won’t. So polyamory is a good example. I’m around a lot of poly people right now. And I think polyamory is something that probably works for some people, but a pretty small number of them. I would say I’m making this up, right? 5%. And so I want the dominant culture to guide people towards not that, because that’s what will work for 95 percent of people.

I just also want there to be space. And non, I want it to be like those people who like cilantro tastes like soap to them. I want it to be like, you’re different in this way without that having to mean you’re bad. 

Mónica:

Yeah.

April:

I don’t know if that’s possible. People are not very good at you’re different, but it doesn’t mean you’re bad.

Mónica:

Yeah. It feels really hard to make that ever actual. But Kai’s first answer to that really hard question that I brought to her was, maybe it’s okay to be stuck on this. Maybe it’s okay we don’t really have an answer on this. And it breaks my heart, though. It really does. It breaks my heart, because I think what that means is what we are already seeing, which is that we’re not gonna, I don’t even want to say it out loud.

April:

…get there in our lifetime.

Mónica:

We’re not gonna get there. Okay. What I’m wondering is. And Kai works on a concept called revolutionary love. She mentioned agape love. She mentioned the beloved community. She mentioned Martin Luther King. These are all tied into this beautiful set of ideas. And I just wonder if maybe the way we can do this is by having all of us together, the most reverence for love and that we can love without liking all the time. We can love without agreeing all the time. We can love maybe even, April, I don’t know, without accepting the frameworks that someone else puts on themselves all the time. I don’t know if that’s true. And maybe listeners on the left want to cut off my head but I, I don’t know, I, can we do that?Can we do that? Can we put the most reverence on that? 

April:

I love that. Móni, and I just, the thing you just said, can we do that? Kai said, I have been loved by people who don’t approve. So the question is then what is central? What is central to your dignity? And this is why I’m stuck on frameworks because I think that what it means for someone to accept Me and honor my dignity…

I think that what will feel true to in fact, I’ll just say this straight What has felt true to me about gender and sexuality and all of that has changed over my life And I don’t I feel like in an effort to stop people from oppressing other people. We’ve tried to just ban any interrupt like any input from anyone else into what is going on inside you 

Mónica:

Fascinating

April:

But I need other people to figure this stuff out I don’t, I can’t do that alone.

Mónica:

And you just hit on, you just hit on a place where I find a lot of hope, which is nothing stands still, least of all our hearts and minds. And so we come back to our driving question, how am I supposed to engage with someone who thinks I shouldn’t exist? It’s yeah culture, a culture that evolves, for all of us, requires input from all of us, and we have to find a way, we have to find a way to access the input even from people you began by talking about the fear of the of what is not familiar.

Guess what? The world does change… 

April:

Welcome to life. 

Mónica:

…And we are going to have to, and that’s what I, I challenge not just the right, but the left, everybody. We all love the familiar. It’s not just the right. Let’s welcome input. And let’s give input. And that requires stepping away from fear. Kai has every reason to be afraid of putting input, her own input into the world. And every reason, I believe, to be trying to influence culture. To make more space for her. 

April:

Absolutely.

Mónica:

We all want that. 

April:

Of course we do. 

Mónica:

We have to. We have to do it. 

April:

And, gosh darn it, Móni, I want space for her too. I want, I adore this woman. Yeah,

Mónica:

She’s amazing.

April:

Her work is so moving. 

Mónica:

It’s incredible. 

April:

I just, whoa. And I want space for her too. And I just, I think that the thing you’re saying about what is the sort of foundational bedrock love that makes that possible, like that’s the key, or that’s a key that feels, that gives me hope.

(music up and under)

Mónica:

How are you supposed to engage with someone who thinks you shouldn’t exist? It’s been said a couple times in a couple different ways this episode that along with all the possibilities that have surfaced here, “I don’t know” might be a valid answer. I don’t know more than you can’t. I don’t know more than it’s useless. 

I know that I don’t know doesn’t resolve this question, but it keeps the question open, which makes room for all the answers. The ones we already have and the ones I really hope we’ll keep looking for.

(music out)

With that, I’m ready to send you brave souls back to your worlds with a song. It’s called Even You by Tom Prasada-Rao, and it was the second place winner in the 2020 Braver Angels songwriting contest. Take a listen. 

(Music up)

“Even You” by Tom Prasada-Rao

(music under)

Mónica:

Thank you everyone so much for joining us here on A Braver Way. If this episode sparked questions, feedback, stories you wanna share, we’re here for it. You can always reach us at abraverway@braverangels.org or join our text line. Just text the word BRAVE to 206 926 9955. A Braver Way is produced by Braver Angels and distributed in partnership with KUOW and Deseret News.

We get financial support from the M. J. Murdoch Charitable Trust and Reclaim Curiosity and count USA Facts as a proud sponsor. Our senior producer and editor is David Albright. Our producer is Jessica Jones. My disagreement buddy is April Lawson. Our theme music is by the fantastic, number one, billboard, bluegrass charting hip hop band whose new album just came in the mail, Gangsta Grass.

A special thanks to Ben Caron, Don Goldberg, Gabbi Timmis, and Katelin Annes. And, to everyone who’s been sharing episodes of this podcast with your friends and family, sharing what you’ve gleaned from it written a review of the podcast, that’s been wonderful. Thank you. I’m your host and guide across the divide, Mónica Guzmán.

Take heart, everyone. Till next time.

(music up)

“Even You” by Tom Prasada-Rao:

(music under)

Mónica:

Braver Angels is the nation’s largest, cross partisan, volunteer led movement to bridge the political divide and the organization that produces this podcast. And here’s the exciting part, you can join us in our mission to overcome toxic polarization And strengthen our democratic republic. Head to braverangels.org/join to become a member and support our growing movement. And let them know that A Braver Way sent you.

(music up and out)