Episode 15: Israel. Gaza. Any questions?

Introduction- Host Mónica Guzmán introduces the episode’s theme: What does it take to help young people bridge one of the toughest divides there is, and what’s it like to experience unrest on a college campus?

Guest Shira Hoffer, a Jewish Harvard undergrad, shares what it was like to hear about the October 7th attacks on Israel.

Mónica recounts Harvard President’s Claudine Gay’s statements on the attack, and Hoffer shares about what happened when she invited students to have a conversation about the attacks. 

• Hoffer: “The first thought that I had when somebody asked, when my friend asked me to send out the statement was, people are going to make a snap judgment about me…”
• Hoffer: “People, I think, in moments of fear like these really try and break down the words that people say and say, Oh they put it this way. So they probably mean this…”

Hoffer creates a hotline with operators of different perspectives to support intellectual engagement and questions about the subject of the attacks

• Hoffer: “I felt like I was caught in between. And so I wanted to do something to create that space that I didn’t feel like existed on campus.”
• Hoffer: “I think that there are benefits to social media and I think one significant drawback to social media is you can, see that, oh, my friend posted this, I’m gonna repost it. And since my friend posted this and I trust them, I’m on their side. And now I’ve aligned myself on the conflict in this particular position.”

Hoffer explains the goals of the hotline

• Hoffer: “I really don’t think that listening to somebody means that you’re implicitly endorsing their views. And it doesn’t mean that we’re equating the value of their perspectives either. It just means that you’re clambering around in the dark. If you only know your own position, then and you want to be part of this global conversation, but you refuse to hear the position of others, or you don’t know what they, maybe you want to know, but you don’t know what they are.”
• Hoffer: “We are completely apathetic as to the position of the person on certain issues of the conflict or the conflict overall, we just want that whatever position they end up taking, they can say, I believe this for this reason, or I read this article, which taught me that as opposed to I saw this on social media and now, I know all the answers.”

Mónica asks what it was like to hold a sign for the hotline during the protests on the Harvard campus

Hoffer clarifies the hotline is not designed to inspire questions, it’s for people who already have questions and are willing to ask

• Hoffer: “I think that when people don’t feel that they need to be educated because they feel like they have this moral or other clarity and I think that everybody should have questions about everything.”
• Hoffer: “As a baseline, to ask genuinely why somebody might disagree, instead of as an attacking question say why would you ever disagree? Is something we could use more of.”

Thank you to media partners Deseret News and KUOW.

Introducing ‘Uncomfy’ podcast

Hoffer explains what she’s come to understand about “the other side” through the hotline

• Hoffer: “I remember somebody explaining to me, that they saw it as a continued tradition of the idea that violence against an oppressor is not the same as violence against an innocent. And they pointed to historical examples of marginalized people only being able to use violence. In order to secure their freedom or their liberty I think there are also plenty of examples of people using nonviolent actions to, to achieve the same means but that was a moment where I certainly did not change my mind. I don’t think that the actions of Hamas as executed are justifiable, but I think I understand why some people think that they are and that was a turning point, I think, in my thinking of thinking like, okay, if I can understand why somebody thinks that, that’s a big leap.”

Hoffer shares about a trip to Israel and the West Bank in eighth grade, where she met a young Palestinian, that changed her life

• Hoffer: “I come from a family where, engagement and questioning and listening has been emphasized. And I think that’s led me to have kind of these marking moments throughout my life. That’s, one of them. And I think it’s also a Jewish value, by the way, to, to listen and to debate and to grapple and to try and the Talmud, the compendium of Jewish law is a list of arguments It says this is what this person says.”

Mónica shares her experience texting the hotline, and asks about the importance of privacy and nonjudgement in the design of the hotline

• Hoffer: “Volunteers will apply, and the most important question is, this will require you to put aside your personal beliefs and share perspectives that you might not agree with. That’s really hard. How do you plan to do that? And we’ve rejected people based on their answer to that question.”
• Hoffer: “The anonymity is designed I think it would be beautiful to have these face to face conversations. The anonymity is designed to facilitate the humility that sometimes we can’t have when we feel like the other person is judging us.” 

Mónica shares about a story she heard at the American Enterprise Institute, involving Palestinians and Israelis having conversations, and the ways that can create fear within someone’s in-group

• Hoffer: “I think that it is a function of society that there are also moments that we need to prove ourselves. And that’s not a bad thing, but I think that you don’t have to prove yourself in every moment. And if anonymity, it’s like a means and ends question to some degree, people have said, why not just make it person to person and make people be brave? I don’t think you can make people be brave, like, I don’t know how that would work. I think that it’s more important that people learn. And if that means that in, in this moment in time that has to be anonymous, I think that’s okay.”

Hoffer gives us examples of questions she’s gotten via the hotline and how they respond to those questions

Mónica asks: “What tips do you have for people who are curious about Israel Gaza, but are scared to show it?”

• Hoffer: “One place to start is just ask those questions to a software that will tell you a range of perspectives. I think people often feel so paralyzed by the enormity or the complexity that they just shut down. So I think the first thing to do is ask the first question, and then you’ll ask the next question. And if you don’t ask any questions, then you’re never going to know anything else. And then there’s the part of doing it with other people. It’s so much harder.”
• Hoffer: “Do not respond if you’re having a physiological response to whatever the question says. Because it’s just not gonna, it’s like when somebody sends you an email and you shoot an email back and then the next morning you’re like, oh my god, I can’t believe I sent that email.”
• Hoffer: “I think the reason that conversations get so heated so quickly is because there’s this rapid fire. Do you think this? No, I don’t think this. I think this. Are you sure? I’m sure. Yes, I’m sure for this reason. And it’s if somebody says, do you think, or even don’t you think, which isn’t really a question, but it has a question mark at the end, you can say, why do you ask? Or you can say, what do you mean, when you said this part of the question, what did you mean? Which is a great way of demonstrating, by the way, that you heard what they said. And if you can lower the temperature in that way and try and understand, you don’t have to respond right away. You can also say, that’s a great question, let me think about it for a few seconds.”

Hoffer addresses the issue of people who believe curiosity and dialogue is the enemy of justice and action.

• Hoffer: “I have a huge amount of respect for protest and civil disobedience, just because I’m curious and I like dialogue doesn’t mean that I don’t think that change can be made in that way. But I don’t think that It’s enough.I think that if you protest and you break laws on purpose, but then when somebody says, Hey, can we talk about it? You say no, because if I listened to you, it’s going to implicitly, condone your perspective. I feel like you’re, it’s two steps forward, one step back every time you refuse to have dialogue because I think that change happens with protests and happens with civil disobedience. I think sometimes dialogue isn’t sufficient on its own either, by the way, but I think that they are a package deal.”

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Host Mónica Guzmán and co-host April Lawson discuss the interview with Shira Hoffer

April appreciated the idea of actively seeking knowledge, whether through Google or other sources, rather than remaining uninformed.

• April: “Find a way to ask your questions…There will be somewhere you can ask your questions, and it’s worth doing that.”

Mónica emphasizes the importance of slowing conversations down and taking time to think clearly before responding.

• Mónica: “There can be power in slowing things down. We don’t need to get swept up in the pace of things.”

Mónica discusses how Blues often focus on facts but may struggle to understand the perspectives of those with opposing views.

April reflects on the cultural emphasis within Reds on humility and common sense, though also acknowledging the downside of dogmatic thinking.

• April: “Reds are more oriented toward intuitive knowledge…There’s a respect for every-man knowledge that is distinctive and shows up on the Red side fairly strongly.”

Mónica highlights the balance between facts and emotions, arguing that emotions often reveal underlying truths that might not be immediately visible.

• Mónica: “Feelings point to the facts that we’re not seeing.”

April grapples with the “twin tragedy” of the war in Gaza, and talks about how she manages her emotions around the Israel-Gaza conflict, while sharing a past experience. 

• April: “There’s this thing that happens when you get afraid, which is that before you can really engage a piece of information that doesn’t fit with your current setup, you have to somehow deal with the fear. And I feel like for all of us, what’s happening is this is hit at a key fraction in American politics, which is about, is society about oppressor and oppressed? Or is it not? And like that fracture hits families. That fracture hits friendships. That hits all over the place.”
• April: “You have to deal with your emotions. First, you’ve got to go walk the dog. That’s the only way I can think of to retain some degree of ability to hear the opposing side.”
• April: “The person in front of you is not racism. They are not rape culture. They are not the oppression of the Palestinians. If you can send the size of passion that you have, which is a good amount of passion to have in a direction that can bear it, that’s better.”

Mónica and April reflect on the difficulty of engaging with such a complex issue, without feeling sufficiently informed, leading to a kind of non-engagement as a safer choice.

• Mónica: “We know it’s ferociously complex, which means that the only way to feel really informed about it would be to read a lot about it…It feels like the most responsible thing is to stay quiet… until you become more informed.”
• April: “I think ultimately what we’re looking for is wisdom and wisdom requires holding a bunch of contradictory powerful things that are rarely easily expressed…I wonder if the path maybe the path to wisdom is paved through uncertainty.”

Mónica summarizes the episode.

Featured Song: DAYS OF WAR by Moira Smiley and Seamus Egan featuring Sam Amidon

Episode Credits.

(music up and under)

Mónica Guzmán:

Today, the incredible story of one student who pulled dialogue out of the jaws of one of the toughest issues of our time. 

Shira Hoffer:

The first text message I got said, hi, what’s the best solution to the Israeli -Palestinian conflict? 

Mónica:

Whoa! 

Shira:

And, I was like, whoa! That’s a big one.

Mónica:

And when an issue is this heated and this personal, how do we make sure We’re actually hearing each other.

April:

What is the truth that is contained in that volatile reaction? There always is one, you know? It may or may not be a sort of factual style of truth, but there is something there.

Mónica:

All that and more is just ahead. 

(music out)

(music up and under)

Mónica:

Welcome to A Braver Way, a show about how you can disagree about politics without losing heart.

I’m Mónica Guzmán, your guide across the divide. And I’m here to help you hear and be heard by people who confound you. Across this country we are proudly conservative, liberal, independent or just ourselves. And we don’t want to be at war here, we want to be at home. So strap in, ‘cause it’s time we learn how to turn up the heat, turn down the fear and get real with things that matter with more of our Americans than we thought possible.

Hey everyone. Welcome. So glad you’re here. Taking a step back for a moment. The thing we try to help you do on this podcast—cross the political divide—can sound really abstract sometimes. Like a platitude, really. And one that’s hard to argue with, in principle. Learn more. Stay sharp. Challenge yourself. I mean, yeah. Why not? Sign me up.

But pair that concept of crossing the political divide with a specific political issue. And things can get serious fast. Because when a political question means the world to you, when all your values get roped in and scream in one voice for someone to do the right thing, then hearing a different opinion becomes the hardest thing. 

But sometimes still, the most important. So how in the world can you cross the political divide on the toughest, most volatile issues? My guest today has some ideas on that that have inspired me to no end. And I can’t wait to share them here with you. She found these ideas through her experience of an issue that’s tearing people apart all around her and around many of us, an issue that’s so raw and so packed with bone deep meaning for so many that it’s shaken people and confounded leaders all across the country. Her story begins the day everything changed in the Middle East: October 7, 2023. 

On that day, Shira Hoffer was a junior at Harvard, watching a far -away horror cast its shadow close to home.

Shira:

I was at Harvard Hillel. It was the Jewish holiday of Simchat Torah and I’m observant, so I was in synagogue.

It was a really strange experience. So, I don’t use technology on Jewish holidays, And in the mornings, there was this whisper going about that there had been a terrorist attack in Israel. And everyone was like, oh, that’s unfortunate. But it’s not, something that, it’s not so surprising. It happens with, unfortunately, relative frequency. And then if like maybe a few hours later someone was like 200 people were killed in the terrorist attack and we were like, Whoa, that’s, that’s another level that’s different. And it took like a good 6 or 8 hours for us to figure out just the bare minimum of what had happened.

Mónica

College campuses all across the country erupted after the brutal attacks of October 7th and the punishing war that followed.  But as many of us saw, the question of who was being punished in this complex clash, and which parts of which side can claim to stand for justice  became a quagmire many underestimated and few knew how to handle. 

Among the leaders thrown by the storm of all this was then Harvard President Claudine Gay.  Maybe you remember the infamous congressional testimony she gave in December? That testimony came after weeks of controversy on campus where her statements were dissected and criticized from all sides.  One of her earlier statements that she put out, just after October 7th,  was pounced on for not condemning Hamas,  so she wrote another one that did. 

That’s when Shira came into the picture and stumbled on a game changing response of her own.  

Shira:

So she sent out her first statement, in an email to the student body and I imagine to other folks as well. The subsequent statements were posted on her liike Office of the President page, you had to go looking for them.

And so a number of students wanted, especially the message in which she clarified her position that Hamas is a terrorist organization sent to the student body. And so they just asked different people who lived in different dorms. So I was asked  to share that message.

Mónica:

And so when you shared the message, you didn’t just share the message. You appended a note to the end of it. And, I have it here and I want to read it. so you had Claudine Gay’s message and then you said, 

“I, Shira, would also like to share that my academic work is in conflict resolution and religion, and I consider myself relatively well educated on both sides of this conflict. So if anyone is interested in learning more or discussing this topic and asking questions, you should feel free to reach out for a non judgmental conversation.”  

And then you left your phone number.

Shira:

I did.

Mónica:

Why did you do that? And what happened next?

Shira:

The first thought that I had when somebody asked, when my friend asked me to send out the statement was people are going to make a snap judgment about me just because I’m the messenger. That happens all the time. And so my first thought was, okay, how can I protect my reputation as somebody, I think of myself as somebody who is always willing to engage with everybody and who tries to listen before passing judgment. And so I was thinking, okay, how can I communicate that while also sharing this message, which I think is important.

And I thought, you know, maybe I’ll have an interesting conversation with a few people. That’s really nice.  But I didn’t set out to have conversations. I really initially set out just to protect myself.

Mónica:

And what were you protecting yourself from? You mentioned a judgment, but what kind of judgment were you afraid of?

Shira:

People I think in moments of fear like these really try and break down the words that people say and say, Oh, they put it this way. So they probably mean this, which can be alleviated by the way, by asking when you said this, what did you mean? But that doesn’t happen very often.  and so I thought that if I shared a message that could be considered like a pro-Israel message, then whatever biases they had about somebody who is pro-Israel may come into their heads about me.  And I think my views aren’t very cookie cutter. So I wanted to protect myself from any of those judgments.

Mónica:

Right. So you left your phone number. Did people call it, text it?

Shira:

So nobody called, which is good because I’m not really sure how I would have responded in the moment, but the first text message I got said, “hi. What’s the best solution to the Israeli Palestinian conflict?”

Mónica:

Woah!

Shira:

And I was like, whoa! That’s a big one. But that was the first question and there were others, but I remember being surprised that people actually took me up on my offer because I hadn’t expected it.

Mónica:

So you could have left it there. People were texting you. You were responding. You took it one step farther. You created a hotline. Tell us about that.

Shira:

Yeah, originally, I was like, okay, maybe people will text me and I’ll respond. And as I was thinking about the logistics, it just became this greater project in my head. It’s like, how could we create a space where there was intellectual engagement, despite the emotional pain that people were feeling across the spectrum. I remember feeling like in Hillel, I didn’t feel like there was enough thought given to the plight of the Palestinians and particularly those who live in Gaza. And then, as you may have seen,  there was a statement that came out, within 24 hours of the attack that Harvard organization signed on to that said, we place the blame entirely on Israel.

So I didn’t feel like there was enough empathy for the fact that 1,200 Israelis had just been murdered at a music festival and in their homes.  And I felt like I was caught in between. And so I wanted to do something to create that space that I didn’t feel like existed on campus

Mónica:

So you created something that you sum up as an educational texting hotline promoting dialogue for peace. And you were just speaking to this, that it sounds like you felt that there was something about taking time to learn that wasn’t happening

Shira:

Yeah, I think that’s right.  I think that there are benefits to social media. And I think one significant drawback to social media is you can see that, Oh, my friend posted this. I’m going to repost it. And since my friend posted this and I trust them, I’m on their side. And now I’ve aligned myself on the conflict in this particular position. And so I wanted to create a hotline. And the reason we call it educational is it’s not an emotional support hotline.  It’s really for people who have questions.

They want to know “what is Israel’s relationship with Gaza?” or “what does it mean when people say occupation?” Or “What is the best approach to humanitarian aid distribution?”

I’ve recruited a group of volunteers, ranging from ages 19 to 79, who live in three different countries,  and range from, Zionist to anti-Zionist. And they respond to the questions and, we put together a training program to give them the skills and the framework to be able to answer the questions using our methodology. and then they get the chance to, yeah, to engage with whomever, sends us a message.

Mónica:

I want to Quickly pause here on Shira’s note about the hotline volunteers. She mentioned they are Zionist and anti -Zionist, which means there are some volunteers who strongly support a Jewish state and others who don’t. They also differ in their religious faith. There are Jewish and Muslim volunteers. And they’re all over the map, literally, living in several different countries. 

You mentioned the hotline is not out to be emotional support. So tell us what the goals are and are not

Shira:

Our hotline is based on a very simple principle, which is that to be part of a conversation, you should know what other people in the conversation have to say.  And that doesn’t mean to be very clear, that you have to endorse what they say.

I really don’t think that listening to somebody means that you’re implicitly endorsing their views. And it doesn’t mean that we’re equating the value of their perspectives either. It just means that you’re  clambering around in the dark, if you only know your own position, and you want to be part of this global conversation, but you refuse to hear the position of others, or you don’t know what they maybe you want to know, but you don’t know what they are.

So, we are completely apathetic as to the position of the person on certain issues of the conflict or the conflict overall. We just want that whatever position they end up taking, they can say, I believe this for this reason, or I read this article which taught me that, as opposed to like, I saw this on social media and now, I know all the answers

Mónica:

So, I saw a photo of you holding up a sign with the phone number to the hotline, which we will also share with this episode, out on, I, think Harvard Yard, near, I think, some protests or counter protests. What was that like to be the student holding up a hotline saying, ask your questions here?

Shira:

I actually thought it was kind of fun. There was a group of Palestinian protesters and a group of Israeli protesters, or I don’t know what their identities are. There were a group of Israeli flags and there were a group of Palestinian flags. And I was like, cool, I’ll stand in the middle. So, I stood right between them with the sign. 

And some of them came up to me and asked what I was doing. Some of them came up and criticized me and said, how can you be supporting dialogue when, Israel’s committing war crimes or when Hamas has just committed war crimes. But I don’t think that the hotline isn’t like a neutral. It’s not like neutral on moral issues and it’s not, we’re the centrists and these are the left and this is the right.

I think it’s a broader kind of all encompassing, like wherever you come from, whatever your dispositions are. I think education is a great neutralizer, and is something that’s important to everyone, or at least should be. And so, I don’t think we’re like in the middle in that sense. I don’t think education is like a middle value. I think education is like a huge value and encompasses  or breaks down political barriers. And I think that’s one thing that’s cool about the volunteers, by the way, is they would not be friends, I imagine, in real life. Not that they would dislike each other, this 70-year-old anti-Zionist and this 20 year old Zionist, it’s pretty unlikely that they would come together, but they’re united by this mission of sharing information and helping people come to informed views, whatever those views might be

Mónica:

Yeah. It makes me think of, so challenging scenario here,  on social media and sometimes elsewhere, people will get into disagreements that get pretty nasty. And someone will drop a link and say, “go get educated.” or they’ll drop another link, “read this and then talk to me. “And I think it’s pretty clear. No, one’s reading those links, right? Like we, we throw these links at each other going just…why is education not an equalizer there?

Shira:

The one thing that the hotline doesn’t do is it doesn’t inspire people to ask questions. It exists for the people who have questions. The people who don’t text the hotline, among others, are those who don’t think they have any questions. They think they know the answer. And so why would they even ask a question? And I think that when people don’t feel that they need to be educated, because they feel like they have this moral or other clarity that they don’t ask. And I think that everybody should have questions about everything.

Mónica:

I was going to, I was going to follow up on that.  You said, the people who think they don’t have questions. What an interesting choice of words! Because you seem to be claiming that no one doesn’t have questions. With an issue like this.

Shira:

If you just think more, or more broadly, your question could be, why on earth would anybody ever disagree with me? But that question can be asked two ways. It can be like, “Who is stupid enough to think the opposite of what I think?  Or it could be, a lot of people disagree with me. And I don’t think that all of those people are idiots. So, why do they think that? And those are two ways of asking the same question. But one of them is super generative, I think. And I think even if you’re just asking that, I think there’s plenty more questions to ask.

But as a baseline, to ask genuinely why somebody might disagree, instead of as an attacking question say “why would you ever disagree?” is something we could use more of.

(music up)

Mónica:

This season, we are proud to be partnering with two fantastic media organizations to help us reach more listeners like you.

KUOW is Seattle’s NPR affiliate station, founded with the idea that everyone should have free access to honest, fact checked information. Deseret News is a multi-platform newspaper based in Salt Lake City, committed to providing thoughtful reporting and insightful commentary from the Intermountain West.

Help us by helping them. Learn how at kuow.org/brave or deseret.com/subscribe.  Thank you, Deseret News, and KUOW for helping us create bridges between communities and A Braver Way listeners everywhere.  

Uncomfy is a new podcast from  BYU Radio featuring real stories from guests who dared to get uncomfortable in a moment that challenged their worldview. In the thick of intense emotions, the people you’ll hear on Uncomfy chose to stay curious rather than lash out or check out, and came out the other side with stronger relationships, clearer beliefs, and boosted confidence. Want more of that out of your tough moments? Learn how on Uncomfy, sticking with moments that challenge us. Find it wherever you get your podcasts.

(music out)

Mónica :

Has there been a time that comes to mind when you have had the experience you’re looking to create for people who are texting the hotline with their questions, when you found your way to curiosity and openness about this issue in particular, if possible, and you’ve learned something you’re grateful you learned as a result?

Shira:

Hmm. That’s a good question. I guess at the beginning, I was utterly baffled as to why any reasonable person might in any way justify the actions of Hamas. And to be very clear, I don’t think on a broad scale they are justified. I don’t think that, murder and rape are justifiable. But I wanted to know why some people thought that it was.

And I remember somebody explaining to me, that they saw it as a continued tradition of the idea that violence against an oppressor is not the same as violence against an innocent. And they pointed to historical examples of marginalized people only being able to use violence in order to secure their freedom or their liberty. I think there are also plenty of examples of people using nonviolent actions to, to achieve the same means but that was a moment where I certainly did not change my mind. I don’t think that the actions of Hamas as executed are justifiable, but I think I understand why some people think that they are, and that was a turning point, I think, in my thinking of thinking like, okay, if I can understand why somebody thinks that, that’s a big leap. 

Mónica :

Coming back to that image of you holding the sign makes me really curious about out of all the possible students, it was you. What in that woman’s background helps explain how she was the one holding the sign?

Shira:

When I was in eighth grade I went on a multicultural trip to Israel and the West Bank. and I made friends with the son of our bus driver, who was Palestinian. And I didn’t speak any Arabic and he didn’t speak any English. But I remember we sat in the back of the bus and used Google translate and hand motions.

And I just remember we laughed the whole time to the point that people would be like, we’re trying to sleep shut up, please stop talking, stop laughing. And it was the first time I had met a Palestinian and he was my age and we, were just laughing. And that had an impact on me that, we weren’t talking about politics and we weren’t talking about oppression, we were just, trying to understand the simple words that the other person was saying.

I come from a family where,you know, engagement and questioning and listening has been emphasized. And I think that’s led me to have kind of these marking moments throughout my life. That’s, one of them. And I think it’s also a Jewish value, by the way, to, to listen and to debate and to grapple and to try. I mena, the Talmud, the compendium of Jewish law is a list of arguments. It says this is what this person says. This is what this person says. This is what this  person says and sometimes it says but the resolution is this sometimes it doesn’t. But if you have the entire compendium of Jewish law that all of the then legal decisions are based on including the minority positions alongside the majority. I think that’s, that says something.

Mónica :

So I’ve started texting the hotline. 

Shira:

Really?

Mónica :

Yeah, it feels really nice. It feels really nice to be assisted. Like I can send my questions somewhere. I don’t know who’s responding. I don’t know who they are, what they believe. I, 

Shira:

I don’t know which of the numbers is yours. 

Mónica :

I don’t know.

But it’s almost like I can hear myself better. Because of the questions that are coming out into that thread and I wanted to ask you about that feature of it. How much do you think it matters that this is a one-to-one dialogue?

Let me come back to something. In your note that you appended to the message from President Claudine Gay you said that you and, you would welcome non-judgmental conversation. So, I guess I’m asking two questions at once. I can feel the non judgmentalness, and I can feel the fact that no one else is hearing me, snooping in, wondering about me, because of what I’m asking. I assume some of this is by design. 

Shira:

Yeah, maybe I’ll give you a sense of kind of the back end of the hotline. So basically, volunteers will apply, and the most important question is, this will require you to put aside your personal beliefs and share perspectives that you might not agree with. That’s really hard. How do you plan to do that? 

And we’ve rejected people based on their answer to that question. 

Mónica :

Wow.

Shire:

But people who do join will go through a training and we explain that our methodology is to contextualize, first to thank people for asking. Because really it takes an act of bravery to say, I don’t know. So, the anonymity is designed, while I think it would be beautiful to have these face to face conversations, the anonymity is designed to facilitate the humility that sometimes we can’t have when we feel like the other person is judging us. 

So the person will thank the  the user for reaching out. They’ll contextualize the question a little bit. And then we’ll share a range of resources about the question. And then we’ll say, ask us more questions. If you have them, if you don’t understand something, come back. We’re here for you. And the design therefore is to give somebody a space to not know and to be okay, not knowing or not feel like there are any consequences to not knowing.

Mónica :

Okay, yeah, two things I want to highlight there. One is, it’s an act of courage to say you don’t know. Wow. The other, the anonymity facilitates humility. This reminds me, I was in D.C. last week, I was speaking at the American Enterprise Institute, a conservative think tank, and someone was asking a question at a different session, and they said that, her name was Jessica, that she had just been to Israel three weeks prior, and that she was honored to have been part of this experience that involved a Palestinian girl and her family being in conversation with an Israeli soldier and his wife. And that the conversation for some, somehow lasted like eight hours and at the end of the eight hours, they both said, that they, wow, they really loved this. This was really illuminating for them. Hard, but illuminating. But they also said. that if they were to tell anyone in their lives outside that room what they had done, they would be cut out. And so what this woman, Jessica, said to the room was that she feels that fear keeps us from sharing our good behavior. 

Shira:

Interesting.

Mónica :

That fear can keep us from, to the extent that it can, I think you and I believe it’s good to connect across painful difference, even painful difference. 

Shira:

Yeah.

Mónica :

Fear of our own side keeps us from sharing that model with each other. And that that just, that spoke to me from what you said about anonymity facilitates humility.

Shira:

Yeah, I wish it weren’t so, but it’s not that I’m not a victim of the problem myself. There are certainly times where I, want to demonstrate that I am competent in my beliefs and my, the research that I’ve done to lead to them such that I might phrase a question that I could be like, Oh my God, I have no idea what I’m talking about. As given that, I do the same thing, right? And I think that it is a function of society that there are also moments that we need to prove ourselves. And that’s not a bad thing, but I think that you don’t have to prove yourself in every moment. And if anonymity, it’s kind of  like a means and ends question to some degree. People have said, why not just make it person to person and make people be brave?

I don’t think you can make people be brave, like, I don’t know how that would work. I think that it’s more important that people learn. And if that means that in, in this moment in time that has to be anonymous, I think that’s okay, as long as we continue working toward kind of embracing intellectual humility in the open as well.

Mónica:

Well, I’d love to dig into some examples of questions you’ve gotten, And I’m going to read, a couple of these and then just ask how you’d respond as a way of walking through the methodology, 

Shira:

Yeah.

Mónica :

So, first you’ve said that one of the most common questions you get is Israel committing a genocide in Gaza?

How do you respond to that?

Shira:

Yeah. Yeah, so we would respond first by thanking the person for reaching out. And we would say, this is the international legal definition of genocide as decided by the UN and the Geneva Convention. We won’t pass a judgment on it, we’ll just say that this is what it is. And then we’ll say, or I would say,  here is an article from “X” source that suggests that Israel is not committing genocide. “X” source is, and then I would say, if it was Al Jazeera, for example, say, it is a news organization funded by the Qatari government, etc. Or if I said something from the Jerusalem Post, I would say, this is a center right publication in Israel. And then say, Take a look and let me know what you think. 

Mónica:

Are you ever tempted, when someone lets you know what they think, to try to pull them in your direction? 

Shira:

I don’t know about in my direction. I think, even if you’ve read two articles, that doesn’t make you an expert. So when somebody says, thanks for sending me these, now I know that Israel is committing genocide, or now I know that Israel is not committing genocide, Sometimes I’ll say something like, I’m really glad that this was helpful.

However, these were just two positions. I would encourage you to continue reading and see if, if you can add more nuance to your perspective or, if something, strikes you differently. 

Mónica :

So here’s another one. I think I would like more resources about why America started to have more of an opinion on Israel and Israel’s politics shortly after 9-11. That really intrigued me. At the same time, I’d like to better understand my pro-Israel Jewish friend’s sorrows. I currently feel as though religion might blind them a bit, but I also enormously sympathize with their intergenerational trauma. 

So what do you hear in that question and how you decide what to respond? 

Shira:

I love this question. This question is in a thread of questions. Whoever asked, and I don’t know who they are told us, I think, if this is the right person, that they had seen a video and the part that they’re pulling out about 9-11 was a part of the video that they had seen that was interesting to them. So they were following up on this source that they had seen. First of all, super cool. Keep doing that. 

‘I think that I want to know’ is a great way to start a question because not only do you not know something, you’re not even sure if that’s what you want to know. That is a double level of humility 

Mónica :

That’s so true. I never thought of that. Double rainbow of humility. There it is.

Shira:

So I love the way that the question started. I… You know the question about Israel and America and 9 11 and foreign policy I’m this question what I didn’t actually respond to this question so I don’t remember what the person said, but I imagine they sent various resources about you know, America and Israel’s relationship since, Israel’s founding, et cetera.

And then the part at the end isn’t a question. And this happens to us a lot. I don’t mean happens to us as in, it’s not a bad thing. I actually think it’s lovely when people will tell us what they’re feeling. 

But people will say, I’m really sad about, or I’m really upset that… And I think that this example, The person seems to have an inclination that they maybe are not pro-Israel, just based on the way that they phrased the question, but they say even though they think that religion might blind their friends, that their friends still have, they mentioned intergenerational trauma, but they’re able to kind of empathize and understand why they might have the perspective that they do. And we won’t respond to that. We might say thank you for sharing or something like that. When people say things like that, it’s okay. There’s, this is a pocket of hope to bring back the phrase from before. 

Mónica :

Dang. Okay. Thanks for that. Ah this is A Braver Way. We love strategies and tips for bridging the divide. This is really, one of the toughest issues out there. What tips do you have for people who are curious about Israel Gaza, but are scared to show it?

Shira:

I think there are so many steps. I don’t really know where to start. The internet is a beautiful and terrible place. And one of the beauties of it is that you can just type your question in. And, answers will come up, 

So, one place to start is just ask those questions to a software that will tell you a range of perspectives. I think people often feel so paralyzed by the enormity or the complexity that they just kind of shut down. So I think the first thing to do is ask the first question, and then you’ll ask the next question. And if you don’t ask any questions, then you’re never going to know anything else. And then there’s the part of doing it with other people. It’s so much harder.

I think one thing that we tell our volunteers is, and one of the reasons it’s a texting hotline and not a calling hotline among a million reasons, is we say, if you read a question and you notice your hands start to sweat or your heart starts to beat faster, go, you know, play soccer or buy an ice cream. Do not respond if you’re having a physiological response to whatever the question says. Because it’s just not gonna,  it’s like when somebody sends you an email and you shoot an email back and then the next morning, you’re like, oh my god, I can’t believe I sent that email. 

Mónica :

Yeah, that’s almost never good.

Shira:

The same thing. It’s almost never good.

And it’s the same thing in these conversations, we want our volunteers to be thinking clearly and, you know, when you’re having an emotional response, you are not thinking as clearly as you could be. That I think is just a fact. 

And a third thing that I think about is when people ask questions, people often feel the need to respond to exactly that question, exactly as fast as it was asked. And I think, I mean, you can think about presidential debates when people, when the candidates avoid the questions altogether. I’m not advocating necessarily for that. But I think the reason that conversations get so heated so quickly is because there’s this rapid fire. Do you think this? No, I don’t think this. I think this. Are you sure? I’m sure. Yes, I’m sure for this reason. And it’s if somebody says, do you think, or even don’t you think, which isn’t really a question, but it has a question mark at the end, you can say, why do you ask? Or you can say, what do you mean, when you said this part of the question, what did you mean? 

Which is a great way of demonstrating, by the way, that you heard what they said. And if you can kind of lower the temperature in that way and try and understand, you don’t have to respond right away. You can also say, that’s a great question, let me think about it for a few seconds.

But I think that people feel like they lose power in that moment. If they feel like it’s a power struggle and they’re going to lose power if they slow down or if they ask questions. I actually think it’s pretty powerful to say, I’m really glad you asked me. Let me think about it and I’ll get back to you tomorrow.

Mónica :

Amazing. So you take the benefit of time, even when you feel that you’re going to lose something in the exchange. 

Shira:

Yeah.

Mónica :

Awesome. What tips do you have for people who believe curiosity and dialogue is the enemy of justice and action? People who really believe that.

Shira:

Whoa. Yeah. 

So, the Institute for Multipartisan Education, which is the organization that houses the hotline for Israel Palestine. It’s the 501c3 that I founded. And one of the questions that we’re asking ourselves is for students who don’t already care about this, And in particular, one of the groups of people that we’re thinking about is students who feel that protest and civil disobedience is the only way forward.

And I have a huge amount of respect for protest and civil disobedience. Just because I’m curious and I like dialogue doesn’t mean that I don’t think that change can be made in that way. But I don’t think that It’s enough. I think that if you protest and you break laws on purpose, but then when somebody says, Hey, can we talk about it? You say no, because if I listened to you, it’s going to implicitly, you know, condone your perspective. I feel like you’re, it’s two steps forward, one step back every time you refuse to have dialogue because I think that change happens with protests and happens with civil disobedience coupled with dialogue. I think sometimes dialogue isn’t sufficient on its own either, by the way, but I think that they are a package deal. And so one thing that we’re trying to think about is how can we talk about bridge building as a skill for social activism. Because I don’t think that they need to be so separated. 

Mónica :

With that, Shira, thank you so much for your time today. Wow. 

Shira:

Thank you so much for having me. It was a pleasure. 

Mónica :

Thanks for doing the work you do.

Shira:

Thank you. Yeah. Thanks so much. 

(music up and under)

Mónica:

Braver Angels specializes in creating spaces where people can disagree fully, freely, and without fear. Because when we do, we can find that elusive common ground. And often will. Even on the toughest of issues.  We’ve proven we can do it with the issue of election integrity.

And next, we’ll be tackling immigration through a series of equally balanced red and blue common ground workshops.  If you want to join the conversation to create a shared vision of progress, you can find the link to apply in our show notes at braverangels.org/abraverway.

(music out.)

(Music up and under)

Mónica:

Before we move on, I want to tell you about one of our supporting partners. BridgeUSA is a youth led, multi partisan organization fighting for better political dialogue on college campuses. Oh yes, college campuses all across the country. Since 2016, they’ve engaged thousands of high school and college students in constructive political discussions, aimed at better understanding and finding solutions for the future.  I have gotten to know their work, and I have to tell you, it is nothing short of mind blowing.  Learn more about BridgeUSA and find out how you can get involved at bridgeusa.org. Learn more about Braver Network and the movement for civic renewal at braverangels.org/abraverway

(Music out)

Mónica:

So I knew the conversation with Shira would bring up a lot of ideas about how we can pry open our curiosity about issues that seem impossible. Like the war in Israel and Gaza. But I had no idea how many on ramps it would show me. Not just to learning about other opinions, but to learning at all. Asking questions, staying responsibly informed. 

How might all these strategies play out for liberals, conservatives, and everyone in between?  I invited my good friend and colleague, April Lawson, a political red to my blue, to come chat about it.  

Hello, April, my friend, how are you?

April Lawson: 

I’m good. How are you?

Mónica :

I’m good. I’m good. I’m feeling ah, just really energized by the conversation with Shira. Here’s this young person doing pretty incredible things and picking up a good bit of wisdom, it seems.

April:

My gosh. Totally. Yes. 

Mónica :

So Let’s dive right in.

What was a favorite takeaway for you for bridging the political divide from this conversation? 

April:

Yeah, my favorite takeaway was just She said it a couple different ways, but basically, find a way to ask your questions.

I, so she said her hotline is anonymous and safe in that way, but also there’s Google, right? I just, I loved her encouragement to Not just sit there and not know things,  No, find somewhere. There, there will be somewhere. It could be a person, could be the internet, could be an organization. There will be somewhere you can ask your questions, and it’s worth doing that. Worth doing it. 

Mónica :

Yes. I love that.

For me, it was. Slowing down. She mentioned toward the end that people are afraid that they will lose power in the interaction by not answering a question as quickly as it was asked. But this idea that you can say things like, What did you mean by that? Or, that’s a good question, let me take a moment. Let me get back to you. 

But yeah, the idea that there can be power in slowing things down, and that we don’t need to get swept up in the pace of things. And how much that can help. I really, really love that. 

April:

Totally. We should all do that more. 

Mónica :

Seriously, seriously. So moving on to the next question. as a red for you, as a blue for me, what do we think our sides are good at or not so good at? When it comes to the strategies brought up in this episode.

Do you want to go first or should I? 

April:

Okay. You go first.

Mónica:

Should I go first? Okay. This isn’t the first time where it’s been challenging to answer this question because my initial answer is that everyone is bad at these things. But, I thought about it a little harder and I got to some more nuance in that. The theme that really stood out to me was about being informed, being in the context where you can get more knowledge.

So on the one hand, it’s admitting what you don’t know. She said at one point that it’s an act of courage to say what you don’t know, and I agree. But she seemed to draw a line between emotional reactivity and the ability to think clearly.

And that comes up a lot of places in our political discourse. The phrase “My facts don’t care about your feelings” popped up into my head and I wondered if it was more of a red phrase or a blue phrase. I googled it, because I had somewhere to go to ask my question, And the answer was, it’s the title of a book by Ben Shapiro. That’s one of the top things, and Ben Shapiro is a strong red. 

But for the blue side, I think that blues can be very strong on getting informed about events and issues. But extremely weak on getting informed about how Reds see those events and issues. 

And I think sometimes we conflate the two. Getting informed about the issues is all the information that you need, but it isn’t. And it comes down to that principle that Shira said “To be part of a conversation, you should know what other people in the conversation have to say.“

So, she didn’t say, to be part of a conversation, you have to become a student of the issue and get an A+. That’s not what she’s saying. She’s saying you have to know what other people in the conversation have to say.

So when I look at blues generally I really see that dividing line of strength and weakness. Strong on kind of intellectual informing here and there. But when it comes to what our fellow human beings who’ve come to different conclusions, see in those things, we’re extremely dumb sometimes. And I think it is because, and Shera alluded to it, there’s a moral certainty and a moral clarity that actually leads it to be a problem for us to get informed about how other people see this issue, that it would say something bad about us for us to even go and pursue that knowledge. So that’s, that’s the main thing for me. I think that’s where we’re really weak. We’re really strong, really weak. How about you?

April:

Totally. Yeah, that’s good. 

On the red side, first thing I should say is that when I think about are we good at pausing and asking, why do you think that? No, we’re not good at that. Are we good at making sure we seek out all the knowledge before we say, Nope, not good at that. No. But I would say there are a couple of things, where we are strong  and I’ve said this before, is that we at least relate to the idea of humility as this is a thing that everyone should try to be because we care about character. And I would say in red states, like culturally, there’s a pretty strong, attitude of, don’t get above your raisin, don’t get too big for your britches, those things, which I, can also have downsides, but, there’s a pretty heavy, I would say thick social pressure to not act like you’re, just all that all the time. 

I think that reds are, more oriented towards intuitive knowledge in some ways than Blues on the whole.. And what I mean by that is, 

Mónica:

Interesting.

April:

I’m speaking particularly to the like, religion and culture, aspects of redness. So, the downside is that we like dogma. The upside is that we are very willing to say, yeah, you’ve done a bunch of research on this, but morality just matters. Or fine, you can have whatever letters after your name you want, but I understand what common sense is and that is not it. And so I think that there is a, respect for every man knowledge that is distinctive and shows up on the red side fairly strongly. 

Mónica :

That’s where I would say that hearing Shira draw that clear line between, this hotline is not an emotional support hotline. This is an informational text hotline. A little part of me was sad because,  I do believe that how we feel about issues is really important information, really important data, that it points to something often that isn’t being heard. 

So, I guess…my facts don’t care about your feelings. But sometimes feelings point to the facts that we’re not seeing. 

April:

Totally.

Mónica:

I wonder how all of this applies to a theme of this episode that is around particularly tough issues.

April:

Mhmm

Mónica :

It feels that with the war in Gaza, boy, has there been a flood of information since October 7th. It makes me think about reds and blues and the role of information and being informed in that context. What are reds and blues good and bad at when it comes to..because again, it feels like we’re flooded. It feels like we’re flooded with information.

April:

What this makes me think of is trust and what’s interesting is, I don’t know Shira, but based on the way she was talking, I like trusted her because I trust her intentions. And when I think about there was a part of me that, was like, yeah, but which newspaper are you quoting to answer this thing?

And I think that, she’s she and they are probably doing an incredibly good job. So I liked that they gave an Al Jazeera, the example of Al Jazeera says it is genocide, Jerusalem Post says it’s not. That feels like two legitimate sort of parallel sources. 

So I think that what’s happening is that, fear is leading people is like eating away at our ability to trust even sources that, we normally would. And there’s this thing that happens when you get afraid, which is that before you can really engage a piece of information that doesn’t fit with your current setup, you have to somehow deal with the fear. And I feel like for all of us, what’s happening is this has hit at a key fracture in American politics, which is about, is society about oppressor and oppressed, or is it not right? And like that fracture hits families, that fracture hits friendships that hits all over the place.

When in fact what’s actually happening in Gaza, in my opinion, is a twin tragedy, right? It’s a thing that is unconscionable in every direction. And we have a really hard time with that. And so, then what we naturally tend to do is move towards a sensation of trauma or threat, which takes away our ability to be objective. So I basically think that first you have to deal with your emotions. First, you’ve got to go walk the dog. And frankly, on this issue, you probably have to walk the dog a lot. I certainly do. That’s the only way I can think of to retain some degree of ability to hear the opposing side. 

Mónica :

Yeah. I remember somebody telling me since my work is so much about curiosity and getting to that curious place, it’s sometimes difficult for me to accept that not everybody can just be curious. You know what I mean? That’s really hard to do..

April:

For real.

Mónica:

..on a lot of issues, and, I come in on issues where I’m not as triggered, for lack of a better word, or what have you, and it just sometimes seems like just a, just an intellectual virtue that we should all have access to. But it isn’t. It isn’t always.

April:

No, and, I would submit, the rebellious part of me, and I felt this a lot when I was younger, would say, yeah, and if you, think you’re being objective, but somebody is. over here is in the corner, rioting about this, there is probably something they know that you do not.

And you’ve said this yourself a little while ago about what is the truth that is contained in that volatile reaction? There always is one, it may or may not be a sort of factual style of truth, but there is something there. 

Mónica :

And at the very least, it is highly salient to that individual’s ability to participate in the big conversation.

April:

Totally, I’m going to say something a little stronger. That’s a little more provocative.

Mónica :

Yes. I like that. I’m excited. 

April:

…which is, I think there’s a thing. So I believe in objective truth. I think there’s a piece of actual truth in that too. I don’t, I would not instrumentalize it. Yeah. They need to be heard in order to participate, but it’s, I don’t think I would not want to live in a mindset that. said, “I need to listen to that person so that they will calm down so that they can hear actual facts.” I think it’s really important to say, yeah, and they know something like, and I don’t know what it is, right?

It could be. But I think it’s usually legitimate. I think it’s usually, I know what it feels like to be oppressed and I think it is really dangerous for us to ignore that might be happening. Like that could be not related to facts exactly, but like a moral instinct. And yeah, I just would say, I think there’s a piece of the actual truth there too. 

Mónica :

Yeah, don’t, disagree. I don’t disagree. 

Let’s move on to our last question. Where does the driving question for this episode show up in your life? And the driving question for this episode is: How are we supposed to stay open, about really tough issues with really high stakes, such as the war in Israel Gaza?” So what do you think, April? You want to kick us off? 

April:

I think this is a really hard question. But I like that we’re asking it because one of the stereotypes of people in bridge building are like, yeah, we can all agree that we might disagree about taxes when yeah, but like children are being bombed, right?

And, I thought that the, I really valued the way that Shira’s organization and the hotline that she created addresses just the information piece of it. I want to share about a somewhat different kind of way that showed up in my life. Which is, I was once working for someone who made policy endorsements. And, I remember it clearly because it was Christmas Eve and he was about to issue an endorsement of sorts on the topic of sexual violence on college campuses. And this was back when that was really hot. And I remember reading the thing that our office was about to put out. And I just found it so offensive because it focused entirely on the possibility that the person who was accused might be innocent and said, but you’re going to destroy these young men’s lives. And I found that really offensive because, what about the women? And it just seemed to me like it, and it consistently seems to me like, who you think who you focus on, that’s the story that you empathize with and that’s the person who ultimately has power. 

And so, I, rather than making Christmas cookies, spent six hours on Christmas Eve compiling a really comprehensive, research packet that said, this is why we should assert something different. And, my boss did not change a thing. And I felt really frustrated. And, I had all of this emotion and all of this pain. And I realized that, what I started to do is talk to God about it and like rage at God about it and say like, how could this, how, what? What do you mean? This is how this went. how could he not listen to me? And then it broadened into, and how could this be the world that I’m living in? And the thing that I eventually realized I was yelling about, grieving, whatever, was the entire state of sexual violence in our country and the fact that it just continues.

I think often we get really angry about a big thing in the world and we somehow channel all of that anger at the person in front of us when, that’s not, that person doesn’t mean that, and they are not that thing. But it’s valid anger. It’s like very reasonable. Like it’s in fact, I think spiritually correct to be really upset about a number of things. But if there’s a way to not direct that at the person right in front of you because it’s too big and It’s honestly unfair. And instead to send that to a higher power or to a broader, something. So I think basically the punchline there is, the person in front of you is not racism. They are not rape culture. They are not, the oppression of the Palestinians.

If you can send the size of passion that you have, which is a good amount of passion to have in a direction that can bear it, that’s better. 

Mónica :

Ooh, I love that. Send the passion that you have in a direction that can bear it. Whoa. Instead of sort of, indiscriminately wherever.

April:

And it also, it preserves Shira’s principle of anonymity in a way that I think is valuable, You take it. out of the context of me and you, and put it into the context of an individual soul and the universe, looking at, for example, this just horrid, incessant stream of, tragedies that seem impossible to deal with coming out of the Middle East right now. 

Mónica:

Yeah.

April:

…that’s… sorry, that’s a lot, but that was what came to mind for me in terms of like, how do you stay in. Yeah. What about you?

Mónica :

What came to me was more directly tied to Israel Gaza, and unlike you, and Shira, I’ve never been to Israel. I’ve never been to the Middle East. I feel pretty uninformed, which I realized was actually an interesting place in which to reflect about this, because I recognize this issue as a very big, tough issue on which a lot of people in America, and I’m making that distinction because obviously you go to other parts of the world and it is far more in your everyday for obvious reasons. But it is an issue that I recognize, and it’s an extremely important one. It tugs at a lot of values in me, and it tugs at a lot of emotion in me, and what I was reflecting on was, why am I not getting more informed? What is keeping me from spending a lot of time? 

So the reason this is coming up is because, well before October 7th, I understood everything in the Middle East with Israel and Arabic countries and Muslim and Jewish and Christian, all this, as being so ferociously complex that we’ve been making jokes about that for a long time. Like, how complicated is that? “Not as complicated as the Middle East”. It’s like we know it’s ferociously complex, which means that the only way to feel really informed about it would be to read a lot about it. I recently spoke to a journalist who told me that he used to cover the Middle East in his columns, but realized when he stopped covering it as a beat that he couldn’t cover it casually. Because it wasn’t, in his thinking, the kind of thing that you can cover by just coming in a little bit just to report the story and then coming out. In his mind, that, you can’t do that with this issue. You just can’t do it. So in other words, it feels like there is this gigantic burden of information. Do like, okay, what would it take for me to sit and get more informed? It’s I don’t want to do it on social media. I’ve texted Shira’s hotline and I’ve gotten really good resources there and I’ve read up on a couple of them, but it’s difficult for me to carve out in my life the time that I think it would take for me to feel any command of this particular war. This particular set of circumstances. So in a weird way, it’s like I’ve chosen, I wonder if listeners relate to this, but like I’ve chosen a kind of non-engagement as the most responsible thing. Because. if I get informed, but not sufficiently, I may become, and here’s my fear radicalized on one side or the other, right?

If I get informed, but not sufficiently, not in a full, not enough in a balanced enough way, or not with trustworthy enough sources, I’m maybe not, maybe I didn’t mean to, right? Then I might be overly radicalized on one side or the other. That’s my fear. So then it feels like the most responsible thing is, don’t put any flags on your profile because you sure as heck aren’t like, on one or another side strongly enough. And until you become more informed, mostly stay quiet? But then again, that comes back to what you were saying. It’s like there’s horrible things happening in the world. And I’m pretty convinced that there’s horrible things happening in this part of the world.

I often wonder, I wish that I could peer into everyone’s heart and brain and figure out where does this person think that they are sufficiently informed? Where does that person think that they’re sufficiently informed? My guess is that different people have different lines. And that some people think they’re sufficiently informed with what I would consider to be too little information. 

April:

Oh, absolutely. We all know those people, too. 

Mónica:

I’ll just go ahead and self-analyze, but after many years being a journalist and finding out how unbelievably wrong so many of my assumptions are, I feel like my line for being sufficiently informed is really high, and maybe even too high, for the kind of engagement that a regular citizen ought to be able to feel eligible for.

I just feel really, that’s, one of the reasons like I don’t, I’m not a human being who has a lot of really strong opinions that she feels about issues that she feels confident saying out loud because most of the time there’s a voice in my head going, you should look into that more. 

April:

I just have to express this feeling. I would rather have your voice in a lot of these conversations asserting stuff than many of the ones who do. And I think ultimately what we’re looking for is wisdom and wisdom requires holding a bunch of contradictory, powerful things that are rarely easily expressed. And obviously our policy should be this, right?

And I wonder if the path, maybe the path to wisdom is paved through uncertainty. 

Mónica:

Yeah, I think so. I think so. 

April:

Yeah.

Mónica:

If there was one thing I wish I could do around, the thing that I think would get me most informed on Israel Gaza is not reading anything. It would be going. 

April:

No. That’s right. 

Mónica:

I believe fully in that principle

Like the best way, I shouldn’t, I don’t know if I want to say the best way, but I think a very essential ingredient is, have you been there? Have you been steeped in something about it? You and Shira have been to Israel. My husband has been to Israel. I have not been to Israel. I have not been to Palestine.

And so this issue has the most weight in a certain part of the world that I have never been to. And I, feel that. I feel that very heavily.  But if we say that everyone has to have been there to be qualified, that’s silly. You can’t. 

April:

I’m gonna make one counter argument, which is just that, and, I really, it’s strange to be in a position of saying, No, no, be more arrogant. Stop being so humble. But that is kind of what I’m saying!

Mónica :

See, the thing is I know we’ve done good work here, April, when we start to contradict ourselves all the way around.

April:

That’s right

Mónica: 

That’s when I know. We have done really good work. We’ve seen a thing from every angle, folks. You’ve gotten the best of us. 

April:

Exactly. This is the place for arrogance. Sorry Shira. (laughter)

Mónica :

No, go ahead, April, no, 

April:

I, Yeah. I was just gonna say that it is also true. I think the basis for legitimacy in weighing in on things that you don’t know as much about is that to be human is to be human is to be human is to be human. Whether you’re, In Gaza or Beijing or Copenhagen or here. 

But I do think that you are very attuned to what is human and that in a way that’s the primary thing people need. Now there’s got to be some blend here, right? Cause humility’s gotta show up somewhere. But I do think that other part is also true. 

Mónica :

Yeah, so in a way, I just thought of one takeaway from this conversation for me is be humble, but not too humble. You know?

April:

Exactly!

Mónica:

Because it’s, I think the world lacks a lot of humility.

April:

It does.

Mónica: 

I think that’s the bigger problem.

April: 

It does. Because it’s all the people who say, “look, I just don’t know enough. I don’t feel comfortable speaking up. And the fact that they have that opinion makes me respect them and know, that if they were to voice an opinion, it would be from a place of at least acknowledging complexity. 

Mónica:

Exactly:

April:

So, yeah, be humble, but not too humble or maybe be humble, but not passive. Anyway, I like humble, but not too humble.

Mónica:

Something about that. All right, cool. Well, thank you, April, as usual. I feel, uh. 

April:

And you

(usic under) 

Mónica:

I have learned. I’ve learned things. I like that. 

So being humble, but not too humble.  Staying informed about events and about people. About complexity and what it illuminates, About disagreements and how to handle them.  All this, I know it won’t be enough to solve our most intractable conflicts, but it might just keep us from losing ourselves to them. 

And wouldn’t that make the ability to disagree well one of the most in demand skills of our modern world? Speaking of which, check out the new written essay question that Harvard just added this Summer to its application for admission. The question reads, “Describe a time when you strongly disagreed with someone about an idea or issue. How did you communicate or engage with this person? What did you learn from the experience?”

Oh, and by the way, if you wanna learn more about Shira’s Hotline for Israel Palestine, go to hotlineforip.com or just start texting with the trained volunteers on the other end by sending your questions about the conflict. Any question will do, to 617- 313-2125. 

With that, I’m ready to send you brave souls back to your world with a song, it’s called Days of War by Moira Smiley and Seamus Egan, featuring Sam Amidon. Moira was a featured artist of the month for Braver Angels.  Take a listen. 

(vocal up)

“Sit with me, birdie, in the tall tree.  The news is bad and there’s no relief.
How do you fly  to the enemy
and  sing your song so  tenderly.
These days of war.”  

(music under)

Thanks everyone so much for joining us here on A Braver Way. If this episode sparked stories, questions, comments, anything you want to share with us, we are here. 

You can always reach us at abraverway@braverangels.org. or join our text line to check in throughout the season from right there on your phone. To get started, just text the word BRAVE to 206-926-9955. 

A Braver Way is produced by Braver Angels and distributed in partnership with KUOW and Deseret News. We get financial support from the MJ Murdoch Charitable Trust and Reclaim Curiosity, and count USA Facts as a proud sponsor.  

Our senior producer and editor is David Albright. Our producer is Jessica Jones.  My disagreement buddy is April Lawson. 

Our theme music is by the fantastic number one Billboard bluegrass charting hip hop band GangstaGrass.  

A special thank you to Ben Caron, Don Goldberg, Gabbi Timmis, and Katelin Annes. And to everyone who’s been sharing episodes of this podcast or just writing reviews, telling people about it. Thank you.

I’m your host and guide across the divide, Mónica Guzmán. Take heart, everyone. Till next time.  

(music up)

(music under)

Braver Angels is the nation’s largest, cross partisan, volunteer led movement to bridge the political divide and the organization that produces this podcast. And here’s the exciting part. You can join us in our mission to overcome toxic polarization and strengthen our democratic republic. Head to braverangels.org/join to become a member and support our growing movement. And let them know that A Braver Way sent you.. 

(vocal up)

“Leave me alone this silent day,  and how you sing in these days of war,  where no one  listens  anymore.”