Beat | How to navigate political fear

Mónica Guzmán

Hey everyone, it’s Mónica. For this week’s Beat episode, I want to start by stating the obvious. Heart rates have ticked up since the attempted assassination of Donald Trump on all sides of the divide for a whole range of reasons. One person who leans conservative wrote in.

“I am nervous for the future of our country. I think Trump is handling this like a warrior, although a bit pompous, but that is Trump. I am taken completely aback by how many people are upset that the shooter missed and are celebrating the attempt.”

 Another person who leans liberal told us this.

“I was horrified first at the assassination attempt. I was equally horrified at Trump’s raised fist as the first thing out of his mouth was, ‘Fight. ‘ I am both saddened and quivering, trying to find some hope for our country, democracy, and the world.”

Last week, we asked you to tell us what we could offer that would be most useful to hear right now, given A, the mission of this podcast around helping you bridge the political divide, and B, the intensity of the reactions across that divide to the attempted assassination of a presidential candidate.

Which, as jarring as that was, is far from the only thing that’s raising the stakes for a lot of you. The threat of political violence. The insecurity about the top of the Democratic ticket. The impact of J. D. Vance on the Republican ticket. New court rulings. New polling with big shifts. It’s got us all newly asking that all important election question: “Who is going to win? “

But there’s another question behind that one, that more of you, I know, are also, thinking about. No matter who wins, how do we make sure our democratic republic doesn’t lose?

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It’s really hard to work together on questions like that, when what the other side could do really, truly scares you. So, when one long time listener of the podcast asked for a how to guide to navigate that fear, and so, many others of you poured out your own version of that fear to us, It felt like a good place to dive in.

And I’ve invited someone here who might be best positioned of almost anyone to drive right at these things, both what to do about the fears and how to find and work on the possibilities. With that, I want to introduce Dr. Bill Doherty. He’s a professor at the University of Minnesota and a renowned family therapist who’s built a life and career around helping people reconcile the differences that divide them.

He also, happens to be a co-founder of Braver Angels. Bill. Hi.

Dr. Bill Doherty:

Hi there.

Mónica:

I’m so, glad you could join me.

Bill:

Hi. I’m thrilled to be with you.

Mónica:

A quick note for our listeners, this interview was recorded before Joe Biden withdrew from the presidential race, so you’ll hear a few references to his candidacy that are no longer up to date.

Let’s start here. After decades working as a family therapist. You’ve added a whole new specialty, and now you think also, of yourself as a citizen therapist.

Can you tell us what that means and what led you to it?

Bill:

Yeah, so, a citizen therapist really is somebody who sees their patients with their work and their mission as part of the collective good of our country, and not just the people I see in my office. And so, what are my responsibilities as a citizen? And I’m using citizen not in the legal sense, but in the sense of a stakeholder. I’m a stakeholder in our country, in my community, my state. And then how can I use what I know to make a difference there?

Mónica:

So, you and I were talking before about how even though there’s been an uptick in fear on the, on the left politically because they’re less confident their candidate will win than maybe they used to be, fears abound left and right about what the other side could do.

You’ve done lots of cross partisan counseling and workshops over the years. What are the deepest fears you’ve seen people show on the left about the right and on the right about the left?

Bill:

Yeah, it’s really important to understand that people on both sides are afraid.  What happens is that people think of their own candidate for president as, you know, as having some flaws.

You know, nobody’s perfect, but they’re not afraid of the person on their own side. They’re afraid of the person on the other. So, people who, who are afraid of Donald Trump and Republican victory are, I’m really afraid of, we’ll have a dictator, we’ll have somebody who won’t leave office, right, who will suspend the constitution, we’ll go after journalists and others and try to imprison them. The fears of losing the country, right, to losing our country. Democratic Republic. And people on the other side, there are many fears as well, and one of those is that if the progressive left succeeds in taking over the Democratic Party, that in addition to the left owning the culture, universities, Hollywood, you know, the arts, the culture, they’ll own the government. Okay, with an agenda. of rooting out the people with more conservative views. And that overall, that government will grow and grow and grow in power and really take away liberties. So, both sides are afraid of losing their liberty. And losing their country.

Mónica:

And that’s a pretty deep, pervasive fear. So, the person who wrote in asking that we offer a “how to guide” for navigating fears happens to be liberal. And so, she told us more about what scares her. And she said, “I have great fear of a Trump win because I think he is a dangerous man and great fear of a Trump loss because he will rally more violence. Honest. Please believe me. She said, I am making an effort to understand my conservative friends. But I can’t let go of this fear.”

What do you recommend to her and people on any side who are trying to find that braver way to talk politics but don’t know how to keep wrestling with what scares them most?

So, the beginning is to accept the feelings. They’re from somewhere, and they’re not hallucinations, okay, and understanding that the other side isn’t hallucinating either, that I have fears, other people have fears, they’re real, so, it’s accepting the fears, and then, question them, because what happens is, I imagine some listeners, when they heard me answer your first question, laying out what the Trump opponents are afraid of, and then what Republicans are afraid of, they kind of dismiss, okay, oh, he really nailed it about my sides’ fears, but the other, come on, come on. You know, the very first Braver Angels workshop in December of 2016, one of the learnings that the Trump supporters, it was 10 Trump supporters, 10 Hillary supporters, one of the Trump supporters said that part of what she took from this workshop is she realized that the fears of the blues about Trump were real, because what she had told herself is they’re just, they’re bad losers.

And similarly, it would be tempting for. Blues to think, you know, these people are, they don’t really believe that the Democrats over time would take away their liberties. They’re just, you know, just listen to Fox News too much and thereby dismiss it. What she realized after hearing a grandmother say why she was at the workshop, this woman said with tears, I’m afraid for the future of my grandchildren.

And she had tears. Those are real fearshe t Reds realize. These are not just short loser ones, so, it’s accepting that, that my fellow citizens are also, afraid, many of them.

Mónica:

I remember, you had brought up an analogy to me that really stuck with me about if you’re in the woods, with a bear. Can you say that one again because it really landed with me.

Biull:

The analogy is that if you’re in the woods, you have reason to be afraid of bears, okay? And so, you have to have your wits about you. And one of the things to be really aware of is that if you are standing between a mama bear and her cubs, she is going to be afraid for the lives of her cubs and she’s going to take you out. not because she’s inherently aggressive, because she is afraid. And so, navigating the forest, navigating the political forest, it’s really helpful to be aware of the fears of people who were on the other side.

Mónica:

So, one thing it seems like we can all agree on is that we, we don’t want political violence. And you’ve said that to do that, we have to tone down the rhetoric that our democracy will not survive four years of President Trump or President Biden.. So, a lot of people agree with that as a prescription. You know I do, but there’s, there’s a fear there too that a lot of people tell us about. The fear that by toning down that rhetoric, you’re toning down the truth. That we need to be honest about an awful threat to keep it from destroying us. So, what comes to mind as you think about how people could navigate that fear in particular?

Bill:

I think we live in an apocalyptic culture. So, here we’re talking about, again, accepting my fears, accepting that other people have their own fears. And then trying to rationally question my own rhetoric and now I can’t tell people what to think, but I can say what I  think and that I think that there is enough resilience in our people, Americans. We’ve had some dark times where there were people in power who were threatening to our country. We have survived all of those.

And so, what I’m saying is, instead of focusing on the fear object, the fear object is the other party, it’s Trump, it’s Biden. If we get so, focused on what we’re afraid of, we can lose our sense of our own resilience, our own capacity to not let that happen. We the people of the United States, it’s our country. And I do believe we will not give it away. We will not let somebody take it away. So, that’s where my hope is.

Mónica:

Okay, well one last question for you, Bill. We got a note on the podcast text line that gets to a nuance here really nicely, so, I want to just ask it to you verbatim. And the listener said, “I truly want to bring down the temperature in the discussion.I believe it’s dangerous to make apocalyptic remarks about democracy being doomed if the other guy wins. I get that it can create a climate that pushes folks to violence, But I also, want to talk about real threats as I see them from the other side. I believe they are anti-democratic and dangerous. How do I do this?”

What comes to mind there?

Bill:

Yeah, great question because this is again part of the psychology of dealing with our fears. and that is: Be specific. Okay, talk, be specific in what you’re saying, that I am concerned about where the next president will take the Supreme Court. I’m concerned about the independence of the judiciary.

And then that can lead to problem solving and mobilization around the specific fears that we have. The use of the presidency against political opponents because people, many people on the right really do believe that Biden and the Democrats have gone after Trump. In many ways to, you know, to take them out by imprisonment.

It’s a strongly held belief. And then a strongly held belief, more blues, is that Trump will try to do the same thing. Okay, that’s about the use of the judicial system. And we can talk about that. As opposed to our whole democracy, our whole way of life. It’s too broad to get one’s hands around. And it confuses rhetoric with behavior. And there can be people who have anti-democratic rhetoric, and you have to look at what the behavior is. And then for me, now I’m just talking about how I think about these things and what are. What are the barriers? What are the guardrails? What are the guardrails that are in place? And some of those are institutional, and some of those are the press, and some of those are citizens mobilizing.

There are guardrails. And so, the more specific, we can talk about what we’re worrying about, as opposed to the big things. The big D democracy. Cause both sides are throwing that around at each other.

Mónica:

That’s right. Very much so.

Bill:

So, when that happens, move on from that rhetoric. That’s what I’ve learned at Braver Angels. Once something gets caught up in the red, blue divide, the language, you can’t, you can’t use it. I don’t use it anymore. Move on and talk about your specific worries and fears, and then figure out how you’re going to be part of guardrails.

Mónica:

Amazing. Thank you so, much, Bill. I always learn from you on these things and so, many others.

So, thank you for joining us.

Bill:

It’s been my pleasure.

And thank you all so, much for joining us for this beat episode of A Braver Way. A Braver Way is produced by Braver Angels and distributed in partnership with KUOW and Deseret News. We get financial support from the M. J. Murdoch Charitable Trust and Reclaim Curiosity, and count USA Facts as a proud sponsor.

Our senior producer and editor is David Albright. Our producer is Jessica Jones. Our theme music is by the fantastic, number one, Billboard, bluegrass charting, hip hop band, Gangsta Grass. A special thanks to Ben Caron, Don Goldberg, and the band. A special thanks to Ben Caron, Don Goldberg, Gabbi Timmis, and Caitlin Annas.

I’m your host and guide across this divide, Mónica Guzmán. If this episode sparked questions, stories, comments you want to share with us, we always want to hear them. You can reach us at A Braver Way at braverangels.org or join our text line by texting the word BRAVE to 206 926-9955. Take heart, everyone. Till next time.

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