Episode 4: How can we disagree better?

What would a braver way of doing politics in this country look like? [00:00]

Governor Cox: “we can’t solve any of the biggest problems that our country is facing if we’re not able to do that piece [bridge-building] first” [07:54]

Utah brings together religious leaders and LGBTQ leaders for “The Utah Compromise” [11:14]

Governor Cox speaks of the outcomes of inviting transgender advocates to the governor’s mansion, “There are people on the other side of this issue that hate what we did in Utah and are very upset with what we did in Utah…That being said…there were some actual changes that were made.” [15:35]

Troy Williams talks about winning a ban on conversion therapy in Utah, including protests at the governor’s office and Governor Cox speaking to protestors and young activists. [20:34]

Governor Cox: “I know that we are just better when we get to know other people and when we go into those spaces where we’re unexpected.” [23:01]

Troy Williams: “once our emotional defenses began to lower and we stopped vilifying each other, and we truly started hearing and presuming good faith from the other side, then we got down to business.” [28:17]

Governor Cox: “He [Troy] kept trying to build bridges and realized…that it’s the only way to actually get things done. And again, to his credit and the legislator’s credit, they were able to come out of this with a deal that passes unanimously.” [29:47]

Governor Cox tells us about the time that he called members of Congress names that got attention. [31:50]

Governor Cox: “I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be passionate about what we believe in…But I could do that without calling them imbeciles, right?” [34:56]

Mónica: “Could not being mean to the other side look like you’re not committed to your own side?” [36:02]

Governor Cox: “There’s this false narrative out there, and it’s very seductive, that unless you’re treating other people with contempt, you’re a moderate, which is kind of a four-letter word. And it’s something that drives me crazy all of the time.” [36:45]

Mónica: “Is it that the attention is the fuel and the air we breathe and we can’t get attention without disrespect and so we don’t know what else to do?” [38:44]

Governor Cox: “There’s a hunger, an exhausted majority out there who really does want this, that you can break through by treating our opponents with respect.” [39:38]

What Governor Cox says to people who claim he is only able to build bridges because he is in a state with a supermajority. [41:12]

Governor Cox: “Most politicians are good people. Most politicians are fairly normal people. This is not healthy for us and we know it.” [42:03]

Governor Cox: “There has been some question over whether or not the governor of the state of Utah would welcome the President of a different party. I think it’s insane that we are having those conversations in our country today.” [45:53]

Troy Williams describes the recent history of LGBTQ advocacy in Utah [47:03]

Williams: “For years it seemed that LGBTQ rights were irrevocably in conflict with religious liberty. And the prevailing sentiment was that you could not advance one without the other side losing…Utah rejected that argument.” [48:07]

Williams: “My staff at Equality Utah, we have an agreement internally with each other. And that is we never call our opponents haters. We never call them bigots or homophobes or transphobes or fascists…I don’t want to lock them into an identity that may not be true, and that I won’t allow them to evolve out of.” [49:56]

When the Utah Republican Party had its recent convention, Troy and Equality Utah didn’t stay away. [51:03]

Mónica:

What would a braver way of doing politics in this country look like? Today, we’re talking to a U .S. governor who’s actually trying to find out.

Governor Spencer Cox:

There’s this false narrative out there that unless you’re treating other people with contempt, you’re a moderate, right? Which is a which is kind of a four -letter word.

Mónica:

We’ve also brought in an activist, his political opponent, to keep us all honest.

Troy Williams:

You know, Governor Cox and I have not always gotten along. We have had some very public disputes, and some of them have been really messy.

Mónica:

Okay then. This should be interesting. All that and more is just ahead. Welcome to A Braver Way, a show about how you, yes, you, can disagree about politics without losing heart. I’m Mónica Guzmán, your guide across the divide, to help you hear and be heard by people who confound you.

We don’t want to be at war in our country. We want to be at home. So strap in, because it’s time we learn how to turn up the heat, turn down the fear, and get real about things that matter with more of our fellow Americans than we thought possible.

Hey, hey, everyone. We are publishing this episode on Election Day, and what better way to mark that milestone in our national story than by talking to an actual living, breathing politician working on one side of the partisan divide and an actual living, breathing activist working on the other. But the politician you’re going to hear from today is not your typical politician and the activist is not your typical activist. Spencer Cox, the Republican governor of Utah. And Troy Williams, the progressive activist at the head of Utah’s most active LGBTQ rights organization, don’t buy the notion that a good way to stand for the ideas on your side is to attack the people on the other.

When I met Troy Williams and learned how he fights for people whose differences make it hard for them to get the same privileges and protections as someone who’s straight, or who over the course of their lives were known by others consistently as either a man or a woman, I was blown away. And I got curious. Debates around gender and trans issues are raging everywhere. When you’re at the center of something that high stakes, that personal, facing lots of resistance, what does it look like to do more than rage back and have it be somehow productive? You’ll hear from Troy throughout today’s episode.

Now as the current chair of the National Governors Association, Governor Cox just launched a big initiative aimed at all Americans, but in particular his fellow politicians. And it’s called Disagree Better. I was at the July meeting where the initiative launched, moderating a panel that explored its origins and its challenges. And those challenges to disagreeing in politics without the toxic theater we’re so used to are very big. But Cox is very serious about overcoming them. Not because our politics could benefit from healthy conflict, but because we can’t have the country or the policies we deserve without it.

How did Cox find his way to this unusual but critical cause? Let’s go back to June 2020…We’re six months into the COVID -19 pandemic and its primary election season, both nationally for president and in Utah, where they’re electing a new governor. Spencer Cox, who at this point is the sitting lieutenant governor, is running against three other candidates for the Republican nomination. And he’s already sounding like a different kind of candidate altogether. Here he is making a closing statement in a debate, referring to the three other candidates on stage with him.

Governor Cox:

“If I have to tear these fine gentlemen down to be your next governor, then I don’t deserve to be your next governor. I believe that in Utah, there is a better way. I believe that we can bridge the divide between urban and rural. I believe that we can bridge the divide between our police and our minority communities. I believe that we can bridge the divide, believe it or not, between Republicans and Democrats.”

Mónica:

Fast forward a few more months. It’s now late summer 2020. Cox won the Republican primary and is facing a Democrat in the general election. Across the country, political friction is through the roof. There’s racial tension in the wake of the killing of George Floyd, fights over mask mandates and lockdowns, and a heated presidential campaign in full swing.

Cox remembers a conversation he had with a friend during that contentious time.

Cox:

I remember very distinctly that the fear that if President Trump won, that the left would burn it down, and if Vice President Biden won, that the right would shoot it up. So it was like burn it down or shoot it up. Those were the two things. And that was the conversation we had. And she said to me, “Isn’t there something you can do?”

Mónica:

Cox decided there was something he could do. And that was to send a message to the people of Utah that there was a better way of approaching politics. He reached out to his Democratic opponent in the race, Chris Peterson. And within a week, they had scripted and produced this ad.

Ad Clip:

“I’m Spencer Cox, your Republican candidate for Utah Governor. And I’m Chris Peterson, your Democratic candidate for Governor. We are currently in the final days of campaigning against each other. But our common values transcend our political differences, and the strength of our nation rests on our ability to see that. Although we sit on different sides of the aisle, we are both committed to American civility and a peaceful transition of power. And we hope Utah will be an example to the nation, because that is what our country is built on. Please stand with us on behalf of our great state and nation. My name’s Spencer Koch. And I’m Chris Peterson. And we approve this message.”

Mónica:

Spencer Cox would go on to win that election for governor, bringing his passion for bridgebuilding and his vision for a different kind of politics to the highest elected office in the state of Utah. And I’m thrilled to have him on the show today.

Mónica:

Before we get to the interview, I want to tell you about one of our supporting partners. Life After Hate is a leader in violence intervention, helping people disengage from violent extremist groups online and off. They believe in compassion with accountability, which requires us to call out inaction and refuse to turn a blind eye to the pain of our fellow human beings. Those who do not disengage from hate groups are more likely to commit acts of violence and to contribute to a toxic community that encourages others to violence. Life After Hate combats violent extremism to help establish a safer and more resilient nation. Learn more at lifeafterhate .org.

Thank you to Life After Hate for being a supporting partner of a braver way. Okay, now let’s jump into that conversation with Utah Governor Spencer Cox.

Mónica:

Now, there’s something you say about better disagreement, how you qualify it, that I hadn’t heard any politicians say so clearly before, and you said this isn’t just an issue on the side of what we do, it is a policy issue in and of itself. So how did you come to believe that?

Cox:

We have always looked at this concept of disagreeing better or civility, working together, finding common ground as just an underlying nice thing that would be good to have. And two things changed for me during the pandemic and over the past couple of years.

One is this realization that it is so much more than that, that we can’t accomplish any of the things that we want to accomplish, we can’t solve any of the biggest problems that our country is facing if we’re not able to do that piece first. As I listen to these talking heads and these performers who are just talking past each other and rallying their base and going on the cable news shows, all of that stuff, they’re not even attempting anything. In fact, they don’t want to get something done. They’re disincentivizing others from getting something done.

And that was very frustrating. So that’s the first one. The second one, I think, actually transcends that. And it was something that I had not thought of. I’d been thinking about that first piece for a while. But a year and a half ago, we had a remarkable speech that was given by the ambassador to Switzerland. So we were at the NGA. It was my first NGA meeting. We were in Washington, D .C. And he started talking about his history growing up in Europe. Very European. We were all taught that Europeans hate Americans, that we’re the worst. And it was the exact opposite. He talked about World War I and World War II and how the United States saved Europe from the evils that were happening there. He then talked about his parents waking him up as the moon landing was happening. He talked about being at the Berlin Wall when it fell and he knew to whom they had looked for to end that as the wall came down. And it was the Americans. And he just he just, he was praising us, which was a little unusual for for our European friends and then he went on to just say, “but I have to be honest with you with darkening clouds on the horizon.” (This was one week before before Putin and Russia invaded Ukraine and so this was on all our minds.) He said, “with China and all of these dark clouds, we need somebody that we can look to and we’re not sure that you’re up to the task. You guys are fighting about things that don’t matter.”

Cox:

He mentioned you know, kind of the culture wars and and how we’re just tearing each other apart, and yet there’s no one else to fill this role and and that’s when it just it just really hit me like we can’t keep doing this to each other. We have to do something different.

Mónica:

Yeah in order to lead in the world we have to know how to collaborate, work with ourselves and obviously there’s always conflict. You know we’re America like De Tocqueville praised us for hey they like fighting, okay we like fighting, you know we’re okay with that, but it’s about fighting right, fighting well somehow.

So let’s get into examples and things you’ve seen so you know you’re trying to model you’re trying to show and spread the idea of what healthy disagreement better disagreement looks like in our politics. So I’ll just start broad because I think you have a lot of examples. Where have you seen better disagreement lead to actual better policy making and how you know let’s break it down so start where you will.

Cox:

Okay sure so the example that we use the most actually happened several years ago right here Utah. This was at a time where there was great debate in the in the country about religious freedom and the LGBTQ community’s rights and and the conflicts that were happening there.

And so here in Utah we thought okay is there a better way we kind of put everybody in the room together we put religious leaders from all different faiths and we put the LGBTQ leaders in the room, we had some legislators in there, we had the governor’s office obviously was was represented there to see if they could hammer out some sort of idea or ideals or compromise.

And to their credit, I mean, it was an incredibly hard lift. They were able to do that. It was wonderful to see. I wasn’t directly involved with all of those negotiations. But we called it “The Utah Compromise.” It came out. And so those were great times. And that was a little before we became even more divided on these issues. And the culture wars hadn’t really kind of hit their stride yet. And so they came out. They hammered out a piece of legislation that allowed for more religious freedom, but also added protections in employment and housing for the LGBTQ community, which was really groundbreaking and a model to the nation. And so I was very proud of that.

So I’ve kind of taken those as I became governor and thought, can we implement that idea? And so this past session, again, as the culture wars are heating up, we’ve seen some very divisive issues come forward around transgender rights and transition surgeries and health care. And so I guess specifically, that’s one area where we tried to do that.

As we were heading into the legislative session, knowing that this was going to be a big issue and trying to figure out the direction that was going to go, we invited legislative leadership. And we invited the LGBTQ community, specifically transgender youth and their parents to come over to the governor’s residence and to spend an evening together, just getting to know each other, talking to each other, just trying to see each other as human beings before we headed into this very divisive topic in our state.

Mónica:

Yeah, so I’ll stop you there just to zoom in a little bit. So let’s zoom in on the governor’s mansion. This was a reception. It wasn’t like we’re all sitting around a table hashing something out. Is that right?

Cox:

That’s correct, yes. yes. This was kind of a, just get to know each other, no agenda, just, here’s some food, hear some people. Tell me who you are. Tell me more about you. Tell me your story. Let’s just see if we can see each other as human beings. It wasn’t meant to be kind of, we’re gonna figure out this issue tonight. That was not the purpose of it, but I think it was an important starting point for those discussions. –

Mónica:

Yeah, and I can imagine, I mean, in my head, I’m not a politician, but that sounds quite unusual of a step to take. Give us a sense of that. – I don’t think it ever happened. – Right, I mean, yeah. Did your other governors go, you did what? Like, how new was this as an idea? Or did you have staffers going, okay, but what’s the point?

Cox:

Yeah, sure. I mean, we all had a little of that. I mean, I think, again, on my team we work very closely together. They know kind of my heart and the way I see the world, but so they knew what the point was. And everybody kind of knew the outcome, too, that there was going to be a pause or a ban. That’s kind of what we’re looking at. Put on these youth surgeries and hormone blockers for young people under the age of 18. But could we get through this in a better way than what we’d seen in some other places? Were there some changes that we could make to the proposal to make it more–

Mónica:

Yeah, so walk through those, right? ‘Cause what I’m hearing, I think, is that there was a, its own goal around the way that these debates would happen, that there was a goal around improving the way they happened, regardless of what the outcome would be. And then you’re also saying there’s a goal of, well, maybe we can make the outcome better for all involved. So give us an example of something that happened as a result of some of the ways you did this, including the Governor’s Mansion visit, that you think probably wouldn’t have happened if you had done it more conventionally.

Cox:

Yeah, so I want to be very clear. There are people on the other side of this issue that hate what we did in Utah and are very upset with what we did in Utah. And so I’m not trying to paint this with a, you know, kind of a broad brush that everything was great. It’s not for them, and I understand that. that and I’ve had these conversations with them. And so, so I just, I just want to get that out underneath and make sure everybody understands that. That being said, so there, there were some actual changes that were made. So one, instead of a ban, it was, it was put forward as, as a pause until we can, we can get more information. I think that’s a distinction that matters. And I think it was important to those who were advocating on the, against me and against my party on this one.

One of the other things that was really important to me was that, that we were able to get some money. This was not originally in the proposal. We were able to get a significant amount of money to go to some mental health care for some therapy for, for those that are struggling with transitioning and trying to figure things out. So setting public money aside for that, that, that I think was, was important and a big win. The last one was a question of, of those who were already transitioning, would they, you know, be taken off of the medication that they were on already. And to, to the sponsors credit who is a doctor, he’s a medical doctor, a very conservative Republican. He looked at the data and the research and said that could be very dangerous for, for young people who were on testosterone reducers, that if their testosterone went up very quickly because they were removed from that medication, they could become violent. It could be very difficult for them as well. And so decided that wouldn’t happen.

So those were, those were three changes that came about because we were able to actually have a discussion and, and work through some of those gender dysphoria issues that, that people are facing that I don’t think would have happened if we had just, if we just approached it the way, the way that some other states have done.

Mónica:

Okay, this is a place where I want to bring in the perspective of Troy Williams, the LGBTQ advocate we introduced earlier. As Governor Cox rightly points out, even when we do all this stuff exactly right, when we listen, we’re compassionate, we consider the opposing viewpoint. When it comes to policy decisions, some people are inevitably left disappointed. Sometimes you’re just on the losing side and we don’t want to sugarcoat that. So here’s Troy to give us his perspective on the same compromise that Governor Cox just described.

Troy Williams:

So the issue of gender affirming care for transgender children has ignited debate all over the world and it’s becoming one of those hot button issues like guns or abortions where people just dig into their positions and they stop listening to each other. And to provide a little more context, we have children in America and around the world who experience gender dysphoria and it can be a source of great distress. In some cases, it can be debilitating. So now, I do believe that people on all sides of this issue want children to live happy and healthy. And the debate around transgender youth is really what is the best care and who decides who can access it? The government or parents? And I really believe that conservative states who have banned all affirming care have crossed a line that violates parental rights. And so as a result, transgender children in those states are still in distress. So in Utah, we passed a moratorium and thankfully, we didn’t sever children who were in treatment from their medical care. So we grandfathered them in. But new kids who have a diagnosis of gender dysphoria will not be able to access the same care. The state now forbids it. So what do those kids do? Where do they go? Utah doesn’t have the answers. And so I do credit Governor Cox and lawmakers for meeting with transgender children and for meeting with their parents. But the dialogue can’t stop.

Mónica:

The dialogue can’t stop. This is something Troy mentioned again and again as he described what it was like advocating for an issue in a state where the political cards are stacked against him. Then he brought up a story that I think really illuminates the way he and Governor Cox have been able to disagree well over the years. This was during a period where Troy and his organization Equality Utah were advocating for a ban on conversion therapy, which is a practice where a medical professional tries to actually change a person’s sexual orientation or gender identity.

Williams:

In 2017, the Utah Department of Health reported a staggering 140 % increase in teenage suicides in our state over the past decade. And I put a lot of pressure on then former Governor Gary Herbert and then Lieutenant Governor Spencer Cox to specifically address LGBTQ suicide rates. One day I very publicly excoriated both of them for a lack of action, specifically I called them out for not doing enough to support our proposed ban on LGBTQ conversion therapy, the practice of which we knew contributed to higher rates of suicide ideation. And at one point in our conflict, a group of LGBTQ students from the University of Utah and other colleges gathered to protest outside of Governor Herbert’s office. It was then Lieutenant Governor Cox who went outside, sat with the students, and he listened to their stories. He sat down, he actually sat on the floor with them, he really came down to meet them where they were literally, and the kids were, you know, all the passion of youth, and I was texting a few of them and I said, “Hold his feet to the fire, don’t let him just give you platitudes, you know, really challenge him to not just say the right things, but to do the right things.”

Mónica:

What a thing to imagine, right? The Lieutenant Governor of a state, sitting on the floor and engaging with these young activists. So, Governor Cox, what made you decide to go out there into that hallway with those protesters? When I would imagine most politicians would just avoid the situation altogether.

Cox:

I think that, I don’t think, I know that we are just better when we get to know other people and when we go into those spaces where we’re unexpected. So, you know, a Republican showing up on MSNBC or a Democrat showing up on Fox News, I always get intrigued by that, but outside of that, more importantly, when we go into spaces where we can get proximate. I had read the book Just Mercy by Brian Stevenson, and it’s an incredible book. If people haven’t read it, I highly encourage it, where he talks about the power of getting proximate, getting close to people who are different than us. That inspired me, and we talk about it all the time, that if we can get close to people that are different than us, it helps us be better, it helps us make better policy. And it can persuade, too, it can help them understand some of the realities of what we’re dealing with. So, anyway, long story short, I decided to just go out there and sit down on the floor with them and did a lot of listening. It’s really easy for politicians to talk, as you’ve noticed, on these podcasts.

Mónica:

I need that, (indecipherable) yes.

Cox:

You kind of have to be, but it would have been really easy to go out there and tell them all the reasons they were wrong and what they should know and kind of educate them on why this and what they could do differently and blah, blah, blah. But that wasn’t helpful. It was really just an opportunity to listen and to learn from them.

Mónica:

And what did you learn? What do you remember learning from those conversations?

Cox:

Well, I remember learning just how emotionally hurt they were, how impacted they felt by this. You know, we live in this world of politics where you win some, you lose some, and you just move on to the next thing, right? There’s 500 other things that I’ve got to worry about, but for them, there weren’t 500 other things to worry about. There was this and it was very personal to them. And so again, it helped me have more empathy, more compassion for what they were going through. And eventually, I was given an opportunity to kind of explain what I thought happened, why I thought the bill didn’t move forward and what could be done to move things forward in the future. Interestingly, that Governor Herbert was able through a rule -making process to ban conversion therapy in Utah. And so that kind of moved forward.

Mónica:

And then something interesting happened later, right? So yeah, there’s another story here.

Cox:

Go ahead, there is another story, it’s all connected.

Mónica:

It is all connected, but it seems like it has other lessons for better disagreement. And this is where, I should just let you explain it, but go ahead, go ahead. Tell us what happened that eventually made this a bill.

Cox:

Yes, so now, I mean, now several years pass, right? And now I’m the governor, I’m not the Lieutenant Governor, but this past legislative session, we, not only did we have the transgender youth issue, but there was another one, there were two, again, very conservative legislators who had a bill to undo that rule-making process and bring conversion therapy back to Utah. Obviously, for Troy and his team, Equality Utah, that would have been a huge step back, something that they were very, very much opposed to, and so they kind of were fighting these two big issues at the same time, and I have to give a tremendous amount of credit to both Troy and to these amazing legislators who were willing to get in a room together and just work on this issue, and they didn’t give up, they could have given up so many times, but they sought to understand each other, trying to figure out why, you know, why do you want to bring back conversion therapy? Well, they didn’t really want to bring back conversion therapy, but they felt like the bill had gone too far in making it almost impossible for therapists to talk to young people who were just struggling, who were trying to, you know, talk therapy, trying to get through a difficult time. So they kept with it. They really did, they stayed in there together, and magic happened, they figured it out, they changed the wording, they got it exactly right, so that we could have a permanent ban, not just a rule ban, but a legislative ban on conversion therapy.

Mónica:

I want to reiterate what Governor Cox just said there, because I think it’s such a good example of what can come from engaging with the ideas on the other side by openly and honestly coming together. The two sides came to realize that their two positions were not mutually exclusive. When it was simplified down to buzzwords, conversion therapy, it felt like they were diametrically opposed, but when they really got to the heart of what each side wanted, it was more complex. Here’s how Troy described it.

Williams:

What we learned from talking with them is that they didn’t believe that conversion therapy actually worked, but they were concerned because some therapists didn’t know what the line was, what they could or could not say, and have it not be considered conversion therapy. And so once our emotional defenses began to lower, and we stopped vilifying each other, and we truly started to hearing and presuming good faith from the other side, then we got down to business. And they expressed a concern that they wanted greater guidelines. We said, “of course, we can provide those guidelines for you.” And we did. And we got to a point where both sides, conservatives and liberals became comfortable with this, and we were able to bring all the stakeholders together, got a piece of legislation that provided a robust ban on conversion therapy, and came to another grand compromise, and successfully rallied the whole legislature together. And I think everyone was so, I believe a little bit weary after going through the big legislative battles over transgender medical care, that I think people were eager for a compromise that everyone could get on board for.

Cox:

And I will remind you that, not only did this pass unanimously, but this is a super -majority Republican state.

Mónica:

Right, right.

Cox:

And at the height of the culture wars, that this could happen in the same legislative session, where there was this pause on transgender care. It would have been very easy, In fact, the playbook would say that Troy and his team should have taken that issue on which they mostly lost, right? And they should have used it to skewer the Republican legislature and this awful governor. He should have sent out fundraising emails, calling us all terrible names. That’s what happens in this space. That’s what happens with the activist organizations.

Mónica:

And the communities that are angry and frustrated would have appreciated that, right? That’s the raw meat, it’s the red meat we give each other.

Cox:

Not only would they have appreciated it, but they probably didn’t appreciate his continued engagement on these issues. It’s almost like, “what are you doing? You can’t talk to these people, right?” You can hear it. You hear it all the time. “Why are you even giving them the time of day? Why are you even engaging with them? They hate us. They’re trying to ruin our lives.” So, to his credit, he did not do that. He kept at it. He kept trying to build bridges and realized, I think, the right way that it’s the only way to actually get things done. And again, to his credit and the legislator’s credit, they were able to come out of this with a deal that passes unanimously. And sadly that doesn’t get much attention at all. There were thousands of new stories about the transgender bill and just a couple about this cool thing where people came together to ban conversion therapy in a very red state.

Mónica:

Well, this is an excellent segue to my next question. To cap that off, Troy talks about staying in the conflict, that that’s a skill. Staying in the conflict when you have many reasons to run away, right? Maybe run away angry. So, you brought that up. Tell us about the time that you called members of Congress some names that got attention and what you took away from that and what you think politicians should learn from that.

Cox:

Sure. Sure. Yeah, so this idea of disagreeing better. It’s something. I’m passionate about it’s not something I’m always good at and so I have to I have to be honest. I tell my team that all the time, but my nature if you’d known me growing up, kind of a hothead I went to law school. I became a litigator. I think I’m pretty good at it. Put me in a courtroom and I can you know I can find the hole in a case and or in a witness and tear them down pretty quickly. Not not great if you’re trying to model model healthy conflict. And so it’s something I’ve been working on for a long time, but once in a while it just comes out. So I am I’m in a I’m I’m at a press event and we were talking about an issue that I’m also passionate about which is immigration and immigration reform. I think it’s the easiest of the controversial issues to solve in our country. I think Republicans and Democrats are generally aligned on this. The voters, if you ask Republicans, they believe in in fixing legal immigration. If you ask Democrats, they actually believe in securing the border. Like there’s not much controversy here. Politicians love this issue because they can divide us and they score points and fundraise off of it all of the time. So I get asked about immigration again for the 70th time and I finally just said, “you know I’m so tired of it and I said I’m tired of the of Congress they’re all imbeciles and and they should all be thrown out of office.” I didn’t think that much about it go out of the room Also, my phone’s blowing up, right? Every news outlet in Utah has that’s that’s their lead coming out of it “Governor calls Congress imbeciles, says they should resign over over immigration” and what was fascinating to me is I as my phone’s blowing up.

I thought oh, no, I’ve done it. I’ve stepped in it I shouldn’t have done that. I shouldn’t have said that. Exact opposite. It was nothing but praise from all corners. I mean, people I haven’t heard from in months, years, were texting me saying, “Yes, thank you. They are all imbeciles. You’re exactly right. Right. This is the thing.”

I mean, it was funny when I shared this story at the Braver Angels Convention. I got cheers. I got cheers from the very room of people who get this more than anybody.

Mónica:

I was sitting in the audience going, “Oh, no.” But it was making that point even more. It was such a clear example of how people tend to respond to personal attacks.

Cox:

That’s exactly it.

Mónica:

Say more about that. Right. Why is that wrong?

Cox:

Well, in fact, I was glad I got that response at Braver Angels because it does prove the point, right, that it’s so even just being passionate about being better to each other and tearing those down who are not being better to each other, right, we just fall victim to the very same thing. So it’s in our nature for sure. And look, this is where I want to be very clear about what I’m advocating here. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t be passionate about what we believe in. I’m not saying that we shouldn’t fight for what we think is right and what we believe in. But I could do that without calling them imbeciles, right? There’s a connotation there that is very derogatory and was completely unnecessary and really dumbed down the conversation in a way that isn’t helpful. It also, while it sounds good in a soundbite and it gets people riled up, it doesn’t actually solve the problem.

Mónica:

So yeah, a couple questions about some of the barriers that politicians and other leaders and advocates may feel here. One question I think about is, could not being mean to the other side look like you’re not committed to your own side?

Cox:

Yes. And that’s, I think, one of the problems we face, and that’s part of, we talk often about incentives and the incentive structure that exists for politicians. And there are so many incentives that prevent many of them, or I guess, again, incentivize many of them to not do what we’re talking about right now. But it’s false, it’s completely false, this idea that you can be respectful and passionate about your ideas. There’s this false narrative out there, and it’s very seductive, that unless you’re treating other people with contempt, you’re a moderate, which is kind of a four -letter word. And it’s something that drives me crazy all of the time. If you look at kind of the conservative rankings, I’m right up there with some of the most conservative governors in the country.

Mónica:

But I believe Utah is up there, it’s something like the second most Republican state in the nation. I mean, it’s right up there on that, too.

Cox:

Correct, yeah. But often people will try to label me as a moderate because I do treat people with respect. And again, I try to be open -minded as well. And so that’s where I just think we have to break out of this mold that says you can’t be passionate and respectful. If I can just speak to my fellow conservatives for a moment, if you look at the definition of a conservative historically going back to Ronald Reagan and others through the years, we have ideals and things that we value. But when we start to equate being conservative with being a jerk, with treating people with disrespect, that’s not conservatism. That’s something else.

Mónica:

Something the left does as well, right, yeah.

Cox:

We see it on the left, we absolutely see it on the left. It just feels like it’s been increasing in my party and that’s why sometimes I think we have to call out our own side for that. That you can be a passionate conservative without being a word that rhymes with basketball.

Mónica:

Well, to push back on that, I was thinking about when you called members of Congress imbeciles and I was gonna ask you, is it that the attention is the fuel and the air we breathe and we can’t get attention without disrespect and so we don’t know what else to do.

Cox:

Well, that’s what we’re trying to prove and as much as I would like my fellow politicians to just model this behavior out of the goodness of their heart out of some altruistic sense of saving our country and making it a better place, I also believe it’s just good politics. I believe that at this time, now— pendulum’s always swing and I believe the pendulum has been swinging so far to the extreme in both parties of tearing each other down, of hating each other, that there is an opportunity for politicians out there to zag when everyone else is zigging and the ad that Governor Polis and I have done, millions of hits now on social media, there is an opportunity, there’s a hunger, an exhaustive majority out there who really does want this, that you can break through by treating our opponents with respect. Right, I believe in my cause and I believe in trying to persuade people that conservative values are best for our country and the right path forward. I can’t even have a conversation to convince people to join our side if I’m always tearing them down and I’ve been pleasantly surprised at the media attention that we’re getting. I’m very hard on the media, I believe that the media is part of the problem, generally, that they love the divisiveness. It is, you know.

Mónica:

I’m part of the media, I know. It’s just true.

Cox:

But in a way, because again, back to the cheering of braver angels when I call them imbosals, it’s because we do look at a headline and read a story, click on it, if it’s more extreme and more divisive.

Mónica:

Yeah, you personally are compelled by doing the unexpected. And as someone in media for a long time, the unexpected is always interesting, and therefore compelling. So even that basic principle, do it because it’s unexpected. Get proximate, cross these divides because no one sees it coming. And they will, there will be some attention you might get just for that. And I think that’s very interesting. I mean, we’re kind of testing it out, right? And braver angels is working on the very same thing.

So what do you say, Governor Cox, to politicians who look at the example you’re trying to set and say, you know, well, good for him. He’s a governor in a super majority state where his party has a firm hold and there’s little actual contest on anything. I’m a member of Congress or I’m in a tough, you know, competitive state. I can’t do any of that and expect to survive politically. You know, how would you respond?

Cox: I would encourage him to give it a try. I love to ask people in political office, are you happy right now? Are you happy with what’s happening out there? And my fellow governors have told me, like “this job used to be fun.” Like we used to really enjoy this job. It’s gotten much less fun because of this device. Because of this expectation that you can only win by tearing the other side down. And there are some people that are wired that way and they, you know, there are plenty of them out there. Most of them are not. Most politicians are good people. Most politicians are fairly normal people. This is not healthy for us and we know it. We know it’s not sustainable, but we’re not giving any other incentives, any other choices, at least we think. And so I would encourage people to give it a try, and I think you’ll find that the results will surprise you.

Mónica:

Well I think that’s a brilliant note to end on, Governor Cox. Thank you so very much just for sharing your stories and your thoughts on such a tough thing that we know is an important– the greatest challenge. So thank you for your time, and good luck with championing these things where you can. And hopefully we’ll see more examples from all across the country. So thank you.

Cox:

Thank you, Mónica. Keep up the good work.

Mónica:

Well, there’s a lot to chew on there. And by the way, to the elected officials listening in right now who want to work on all this, thank you. We are with you. Let’s go.

Mónica:

Before we move on, I want to tell you about another one of our supporting partners. Immigration policy is one of the toughest issues dividing Americans. It seems like every newscast shows chaos at the border or big city mayors begging the government for relief.

So many of us feel that no matter how dysfunctional the immigration system gets, no one can or will do anything about it. NumbersUSA is an organization of 8 million citizen activists who believe that better immigration is needed and possible. They advocate for an overall reduction in immigration. But they know that any policy change for the better in this country will only happen when Republicans and Democrats, liberals, conservatives, and moderates can sit down together, engage in civil discourse, and agree on problems and solutions. That’s why NumbersUSA is proud to be a charter member of the Braver Angels Network. Check them out at numbersusa .com.

And by now, you’ve heard about a handful of these Braver Network partners over the past few episodes, so you might be wondering, what is this Braver Network? Braver Network is a voluntary network of hundreds of national and community organizations working together to bridge the partisan divide. All the supporting partners you’ll hear featured on this podcast are members of Braver Network. Some organizations are from the right, some are from the left, some have absolutely nothing to do with politics. Many actively disagree with each other, but all are committed to the common cause of building a movement for civic renewal. To learn more about Braver Network and how your organization can join, go to braverangels.org /braver-network.

After we stopped recording the conversation you just heard, I asked Governor Cox where he was headed to next that day. Turned out he was going to go meet President Biden on the tarmac and welcome him to Utah. He told me he anticipated a lot of blowback from members of his party. “How could you welcome the enemy?” But judging by the confident, defiant look on his face when he was telling me this, he had absolutely no intention to reconsider. Cox did welcome Biden to Utah that day. And not long after that, he took the mic in front of a crowd gathered at the VA hospital in Salt Lake City. Biden was there to give a speech and Cox was the only high -ranking Republican to attend it.

Cox: “There has been some question over whether or not the governor of the state of Utah I think it’s insane that we are having those conversations in our country today. I so appreciate my blue state partners, governors who welcome President Trump, and we welcome President Biden here. We honor this office of the presidency. When the president succeeds, America succeeds, and we want to find ways to work together. We also do want to push back when we disagree, and I think we’ve gotten really good at that part, but we need to remember the other part of that equation that makes us so proud to be Americans.”

Mónica:

Earlier you heard a bit from Troy Williams, an advocate in Utah who’s gone against Cox’s Republican Party many, many times. And now you’re going to hear a bit more. More than once, Troy came up against the giant tension between the LGBTQ community and the religious one. And he thought, what everybody thought, that there’s just no way through it. But until there was. Here’s Troy.

Troy Williams:

My name is Troy Williams. I am the executive director of Equality Utah, and I’ve been in this position for nine years, but I’ve been an advocate for the LGBTQ community for about almost 20 years now. Yeah, and I was known as being a little bit more militant, a little bit more in your face about my advocacy, had a little bit of that angsty, youthful anger and passion in me that animated a lot of my work. So we went through some pretty raucous political battles, particularly over gay marriage. And as we were engaging in those battles, they were very contentious, and that happens when we are debating issues of identity. You know, it’s so hard to sort of step back and be objective and look at what is the best public policy here when it feels like it is a full -on assault on your right to exist. For years it seemed that LGBTQ rights were irrevocably in conflict with religious liberty. And the prevailing sentiment was that you could not advance one without the other side losing. And so Utah rejected that argument. We worked to pass a bill that advanced both. It was a win -win. The success that we had negotiating the Utah Compromise completely shifted and transformed the way that I do advocacy. I saw the efficacy and the beauty of sitting across the table from somebody with whom I had different ideological views from. And seeing their humanity and then having the courage to open up my heart and show them my humanity. And it’s a scary thing to do. There is always the fear of rejection. There’s always the fear that your vulnerability will be betrayed, right? But that’s the risk that we take when we do this work. I often get criticized from my side for not blasting people more and not going after them. You get a hit off of it with your endorphins, right? But it’s not really successful. We have a plurality of perspectives within each of us. And so seeing the whole person and not demonizing them opens up opportunities for engagement down the road.

And it doesn’t mean that I don’t get hurt or angry and want to go on Twitter and just attack because all those impulses are still in me because I am human. But my staff at Equality Utah, we have an agreement internally with each other. And that is we never call our opponents haters. We never call them bigots or homophobes or transphobes or fascists. Even if they’re behaving in a really mean, spirited, homophobic, fascist manner, I never want to label them as such, because I don’t want to lock them into an identity that may not be true and that I won’t allow them to evolve out of. And by doing that, for me, I’m able to keep and preserve my own soul and to preserve my own integrity and my own character. And the moment I can’t see the humanity of my opponents is the moment that I have to walk away from this job.

Mónica:

I want to share one more thing about Troy that Governor Cox told me at the NGA event in July. When the Utah Republican Party had its recent convention, Troy and Equality Utah didn’t stay away. They got a booth. They set up shop. No kidding. They handed out materials. And when people they talked to got angry, they listened. Utah Republicans still talk about this. It was, just like Cox was saying earlier, doing the unexpected. And there’s a detail Cox passed on that I’m not about to forget. When the conversations were winding down, Troy, the advocate, would always offer the other person the last word.

Now on that note, I want to remind everyone that neither I nor anyone on this podcast has the last word on any of the themes we talk about here. All these stories about what it takes to bridge the political divide, when you put them side by side with your own story, could and should spark all kinds of questions. I hope they do. So if you found yourself mulling on a concern or a reflection as you’ve listened back, I invite you, nay, I encourage you to turn it into a question and share that question with us in a quick email to abraverway@braverangels.org.

Because for the last episode of this season, we’re gonna be gathering a small group of reds and blues to offer their responses to the most deep-down, honest questions we hear from you on anything that you’ve heard here on A Braver Way. Some of you have already sent in wonderful stuff and I can’t wait to hear more.

And with that, I’m ready to send you brave souls back to your worlds with a song. It’s called While There is Still Time, written by songwriters Hilary Rawlins and Michelle Browman. And it took home the grand prize in the 2023 Braver Angels Songwriting Contest.

Song: “While There Is Still Time”

“A poet of sorrow wrote three simple lines. A plea that tomorrow may come to weigh heavy on all of our minds. A poet is no one as most poets find. But sister and brother, take care with each other, for we should be kind– While there is still time”

Mónica:

That’s our show. Thank you for joining us on this fourth episode of A Braver Way. It’s been lovely chatting with you all. A Braver Way is a production of Braver Angels.

We get financial support from the MJ Murdoch Charitable Trust and Reclaim Curiosity. Our senior producer and editor is David Albright. Our producer is Jessica Jones.

Our theme music that you hear in the intro each episode and in some other spots is by the fantastic number one billboard bluegrass charting hip -hop band, GangstaGrass. A special thanks to Mike Cassantini and to our contributor, April Lawson. I’m your host and guide across the divide, Mónica Guzmán. If you like what you’ve heard, hit subscribe, give us that five star review, and share this episode with your friends all across the political spectrum. And, any elected representatives you happen to know, we’d love to hear from them. Questions, comments, unexpected things, you can always reach us at abraverway@braverangels.org. Take heart everyone, till next time.

Song: “While There Is Still Time”

“From the ashes of fear, will you stand and bear witness, reminding mankind that we’re all connected, our lives intertwined, and we must awaken, and we’ll fully blood. Oh sister and brother, take care with each other, for we should be kind, while there is still time. There is still time, there is still time.”